Personal issues such as addiction can jeopardize parental custody, but through hard work, dedication, and earning back trust, it is possible to co-parent with an ex-partner successfully.
On this episode of Children First Family Law, Krista sits down with Mike, a former client and recovering addict who came to Krista for help when his personal issues threatened custody of his baby daughter during his divorce. Mike is a recovering alcoholic and drug addict who worked hard to overcome his struggles, and today, he is successfully sharing custody with his ex-wife.
As Krista and Mike begin their conversation, Mike shares his initial exposure to drugs and alcohol and the role they played in his relationship with his ex-wife as they progressed toward marriage. When Mike’s ex became pregnant with their daughter, Mike hit rock bottom, still trying to convince himself he was fine. Ultimately, he recognized he needed help and entered an in-patient rehab, learning how to be honest with himself and others, and working with his ex in marriage counseling to attempt to save their marriage. When divorce became imminent, Mike moved to Colorado, where his ex had moved with their daughter, and hired Krista to assist him in getting custody of his daughter. With Krista at his side, Mike took proactive steps to earn trust with his ex, incrementally earning more time with his daughter.
Mike’s story is one that many parents can relate to, whether they are the parent struggling with addiction or the parent who needs to trust an ex-partner again. Don’t miss this heartwarming story of a parent who overcame incredible odds to earn the trust of those around him and regain parenting time with his young daughter.
In this episode, you will hear:
- The background behind Mike’s addiction, how he met his wife in college, and the denial and enabling surrounding his addiction
- Evolution of Mike’s alcohol addiction
- Hitting rock bottom and how he convinced himself he was fine
- Bringing a child into the mix and realizing he needed help
- The inpatient rehab experience, honesty, and an attempt at marriage counseling to save the marriage
- Divorce, a move to Colorado, hiring Krista, and getting some hard truths from her about his case
- Mike’s proactive approach to gain trust and earn parenting time with his young daughter
- The role of shame, kindness, and grace in becoming sober
- His advice for dealing with addiction, becoming educated about its impact, healing, and faith
Resources from this Episode
www.childrenfirstfamilylaw.com
Soberlink Remote Alcohol Monitoring | Improving Lives
Have a problem with alcohol? There is a solution. | Alcoholics Anonymous
Drug Addicts Anonymous USA – Find a 12 Step Meeting Near you
BACtrack | The Leader in Breathalyzers
All states have different laws; be sure you are checking out your state laws specifically surrounding divorce. Krista is a licensed attorney in Colorado and Wyoming but is not providing through this podcast legal advice. Please be sure to seek independent legal counsel in your area for your specific situation.
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Navigating Divorce Through Sobriety – An Addicted Father’s Story Podcast Transcript
Mike 00:00
Get open and honest early. Don’t mess around when it comes to addictive behaviors and unhealthy coping mechanisms with stress and then even with things like trauma or fear, anxiety, like those types of things, you just get open and honest earlier than I did.
Intro/Outro 00:19
Welcome to the Children First Family Law podcast. Our host, Christa Nash is an attorney, mediator, parenting coordinator and child advocate with a heart to facilitate conversations about how to help children flourish amidst the broken area of family law. As a child advocate in demand for her expertise throughout Colorado and as a speaker on these issues at a national level, Krista is passionate about facilitating and creatively finding solutions to approach family law matters in a way that truly focuses on the best interests of kids. Please remember this podcast is provided to you for information purposes only. No one on this podcast is representing you or giving you legal advice as always. Please enjoy this episode and be sure to like, subscribe and share the podcast with others you think would benefit from this content.
Krista Nash 01:09
Welcome to today’s episode of the Children First Family LawPodcast. I’m really happy today to have a former client of mine who is not coming on via video, just to keep some anonymity, but his name is Mike, and we are going to talk today about his journey from marriage to divorce with a very, very young child, and his journey also in sobriety, having had a lot of challenges initially with in the marriage and having to really prove that he was going to be able to be Safe for his child and a safe co parent in order to be able to have parenting time with his young daughter. So welcome, Mike. I’m glad you’re here. Thanks for agreeing to share your story with people today.
Mike 01:50
Absolutely. Krista, thanks for having me. It’s cool to be in a spot where things have been improved significantly to where I feel like I can talk about it pretty openly now, so I’m happy to be here.
Krista Nash 02:02
Well, I really appreciate it, because there’s a lot of, I think, shame and embarrassment around divorce generally, but also when you have had challenges and you’ve turned a corner, a lot of people aren’t really willing to share that, and I think your story will just be really instructive to tell a lot of people that there is room for change and hope, and I think that you’re really just a just a great, a great example of that. So thanks for being willing to share. And I guess they say that our suffering is not for naught, and you and your wife did go through suffering, and your daughter too. So I’m hoping that really, this will give some hope, both to the parent who maybe doesn’t have the sobriety problems to the same level as their co-parent, but also to the parent who is going through those things. I think you you and your story is an example of both. So let’s go back to maybe before I actually entered your case, let’s go back to maybe the beginning story of you and your wife you met in college. Is that right? That’s right, yeah, tell me. Tell me a little about that. So you, I understand you were about a Christian college and you were a college athlete. When did you meet? How far into college were you when you started being a couple?
Mike 03:13
Just to go back a little further, my story with addiction kind of started early on in my life, in high school, and then continued on to my freshman year of college, and my move was an effort for me to like, kind of escape that lifestyle. So I’ve been participating in drugs now l as a freshman in college, and that, as we’ll talk about later, my attempt to like move states and go to a Christian school was kind of an effort to get away from some of that. So yeah, we met, which was my sophomore junior and senior year, and got married just a couple months after I graduated in 2015
Krista Nash 03:52
So did she know that you had those kind of addiction problems or substance use? And also, what were the substances? Was it alcohol, marijuana. What kind of things, if you’re willing to share, what kind of things were you dabbling in at the time?
Mike 04:06
Yeah, so in high school, I, in my freshman year of college, I had been dabbling in almost every drug that you can imagine, heavy marijuana user, heavy drinker. The summer before it was using cocaine heavily, and I attempted to tell the truth to my now ex wife. Something that’s super common with addiction is we tend to downplay how serious it is and and especially if we’re not experiencing super negative consequences, or even when we are experiencing that negative consequences, we just our eyes are covered. We can’t see the reality of the situation. So I shared with her my path, but at the time, I don’t think even I understood kind of how serious my addictive behaviors were. And then there was definitely an element of heavy drinking with me and my ex,
Krista Nash 04:57
She was drinking a lot too. Yes. Okay, yeah, that’s okay.
Mike 05:01
And another element of this is kind of like the secrecy that comes with being at a small Christian school where that’s against the rules. But then, you know, being kind of hypocritical and doing that in private, and you kind of just feel like no one can know about it. So my relationship with h drugs and alcohol has been very secretive from the very beginning, and that kind of blended itself to a lot of like, the internal shame that I was struggling with. Did you
Krista Nash 05:31
feel like because of some of those dynamics you just like, Were there times where you said, I really need to get help with this, but I don’t need, I can’t out myself?
Mike 05:39
Yeah, I told myself that many times, I kind of had a little bit of a wake up call and like, this is getting kind of serious, and I don’t feel like I’m headed in a good direction, but there was always this element of seeking some type of validation from someone that’s like, Oh, you’re not that bad, or even my ex, you know, like we would kind of enable each other and be like, Oh, it’s not that serious. But then there was, there was ups and downs, like there would be downs where it’d be like, we get in a big fight, or we’d be hungover and hung over trying to go to basketball practice and be like, Man, this is feel like this isn’t the right way. This doesn’t feel like our best living and I tended to have more of those, like, you know, small breakdowns, but then I never had, like, a full on surrender of, like, I have to give this up, and I really need to tell everyone about it, and I need to get help. Unfortunately, that didn’t come until many years later in our in our marriage.
Krista Nash 06:39
So you got married right after school. And so then what happened? Did you move out of state? Then,
Mike 06:46
Yeah, right, right after school, I signed a contract to play basketball professionally, which, again, is like something that I really latched on to in my identity is like, if I can go play professional basketball, then there’s no way I actually have a problem with addiction. So it was like, in this weird way, it was like, if I’m still able to be successful at certain things, and then it’s not reached the level where I actually need help. But yeah, we moved nine days after we got married, and a lot of heavy drinking with both of us while we were over there, and a lot of isolation. Unfortunately, we didn’t have a church community. We didn’t have many friends outside of like my basketball teammates, and there’s a little bit of a party scene with my basketball team as well. So just a lot of isolation and not healthy choices, we would pretty much drink a lot of our free time together when I wasn’t practicing and wasn’t traveling for games.
Krista Nash 07:45
So what then? You came back to the United States? How far into your marriage?
Mike 07:50
We came back? It was like a year and a half into our marriage. I think the drinking had a huge part to do with it. I kind of lost my passion for basketball. That’s what addiction does. It’s like a slowly progressing, you know, I call it a disease that it just steals from you over time, and you lose yourself, you lose your passion for things. And yeah, year and a half into our marriage, we moved back with the goal of just kind of starting a life and starting careers here in the US.
Krista Nash 08:19
Were you talking did you and your wife at that time ever have like, some real serious conversations, like, we need to get it together, or her talking to you, you need to get it together. Anything like that?
Mike 08:30
We did. We had, we had many of those talk and the way I look back on it, it was like we could never get on the same page at the same time is like there were times where I was like, super motivated, I want to be completely sober, and she was resistant to it, and she wanted to continue drinking, and then vice versa. There were times where she was a little scared by my behavior, and she wanted to stop, and I wasn’t ready. And it was just kind of like, yeah, we never were on the same page, and we both kind of really ended up enabling each other with that behavior.
Krista Nash 09:06
So did things just continue on that path? Then when you moved back to the United States and started, started different careers? So basketball was over at that point, right?
Mike 09:16
Basketball was over. I had a business degree, so I was just trying to find- really any job, trying to figure out what I enjoyed doing, yeah, found a like, a sales job, a software sales job, that really didn’t fit my personality and who I am. I don’t think and so, yeah, those behaviors just continued, like we would go to work. She was working at the VA hospital at the time. We would go to work and we would come home and drink. And that was kind of our routine, even on weekdays, you know. But again, we kept showing up to work, good performance, you could say, from our bosses. And so we were, like, especially me, kind of blind to how serious that relationship with drinking was, you know.
Krista Nash 09:59
Were you doing drugs then too?
Mike 10:02
Yeah, not as much, right? When we got back, drinking really became the problem, but drugs kind of came back into the picture, I would say, in like 2021,
Krista Nash 10:11
So how far into the marriage was that?
Mike 10:14
Then it was about three, three years into the marriage.
Krista Nash 10:18
Okay, so you’d been back in the States for about a year and a half, yeah, at that time. Okay, so what kind of drugs were you and like, how did you tip over into drugs? First of all, what was the progression of that going back a little bit?
Mike 10:28
We, in addition to drinking, we had kind of like an experimental relationship with drugs together. Okay, I tended to use more or use secretly than she would. But there were times where we, like, experimented with cocaine or ecstasy, even in the marriage, like there, I remember back a time we went to, like, a Halloween party and we used ecstasy together. And so there was, like, here and there experimentation. But I would say the way it got reintroduced for me, was when I actually got a prescription for Adderall. My when saw a doctor, had been drinking heavily, not good lifestyle choices, staying up late, and obviously that resulted in me having like other mental health symptoms that presented like ADHD when I look back now, truly it was, it was how much drinking and my lifestyle choices, but I went to a doctor trying to seek some extra help because I, you know, recognized that I was struggling, and I got a prescription for Adderall and a prescription for benzodiazepines, and immediately started abusing those so not taking them as prescribed, taking larger doses, and then skipping doses on days so that I could take a larger dose.
Krista Nash 11:46
So this is going to sound ignorant, but what is taking more Adderall or more of the benzo? I’m not going to say it, right, benzo. How do you say it? Benzodiazepines? Yeah, the benzodiazepines. How does taking more of that affect you? Does it affect a person like alcohol, or is it some other high kind of feeling like, what is it for people who aren’t used to those kind of, you know, effects of how drugs make you feel? What was the draw of it?
Mike 12:13
Yeah, for the Adderall, it’s an amphetamine. So it gives you a sense of euphoria, energy. It loads your brain with dopamine. So dopamine, we usually gets released for, like, really healthy reasons, like if you accomplish a task, or if you’re progressing towards a goal with your career, you can get dopamine hits. And when you eat food, you get dopamine, which is good, because we need food to survive. So like, there’s dopamine in itself, not a bad thing, but when you’re abusing Adderall, you’re flushing your brain with dopamine, and it can do some really weird things to you, where like you feel like you’re being productive, but you’re not really, because dopamine is the thing that signals that you’re doing something worthwhile in your brain. And benzodiazepines are more like alcohol. They’re a downer. They lower your inhibition severely, make you relax, can help you sleep. And my kind of schedule was Adderall first, first thing in the morning, and then alcohol and or benzodiazepine at night to try to, like, come down.
Krista Nash 13:18
And were you still drinking a lot then too. Yeah, so did your wife know you were on those meds accessible? She did,
Mike 13:26
okay, yes, but she did not know how I was abusing them.
Krista Nash 13:31
Okay, so then, then what happened? Did it start to lead down a slippery slope to other things?
Mike 13:37
Yes, heavy marijuana use started in 2021 trying to think, what else I use the most? I kind of use cough medicine, specifically the substance dextromethorphan, yeah, just easily abused by people that struggle with addiction. And use that quite a bit.
Krista Nash 13:54
What do you do with that? Like, you drink the whole bottle or something?
Mike 13:58
Yeah you can, or like, it can come in pill form two and you can take, like, two to three times the recommended dose and feel something similar, like alcohol.
Krista Nash 14:08
It’s interesting because, you know, they always card you now at the grocery store, at a, you know, Walgreens, or one of these places, when you’re buying those sort of cough medicines, right? And you’re like, Why? Why are you doing that? So that, I mean, that makes sense, if that’s, you know, they say there’s substances in there. But I, I really wasn’t aware of how much it would take to impact somebody that way. Why would you start to use that? Like, why not just drink alcohol or use these other drugs? Like, why resort to cough medicine?
Mike 14:34
That’s a really good question. Like, some people have, like, what they call a D, O, C, or drug of choice. And it’s just like, that’s just what they go to every time, no matter what. And my youth had always been kind of like just anything that will make me feel a little better or change my state of consciousness, to be quite frank. Like, I’m sure we’ll get into this a little bit, but my story involves some sex. Sexual abuse in my past, and then in our marriage around 2017 2018 I made awful sexual decisions around infidelity and the shame that came along with that and me, Me really hating myself through that and keeping that a secret had a major impact in my decision to use substances to like kind of suppress that and not have to face that reality that I made those decisions. So for me, you know, to go back to your question, I never really, necessarily had a drug of choice. It was kind of anything that can make me feel or not have to feel the uncomfortable feelings that I was dealing with.
Krista Nash 15:38
So did you ever then go back to, like, the cocaine or the other, you know, other harder drugs.
Mike 15:43
There were moments of like experimenting, but nothing like daily use. The daily use really was alcohol, marijuana, Adderall and the benzodiazepines.
Krista Nash 15:54
So did you have at this point multiple sort of, you know, you hear people talk about, like, rock bottoms, you know, like, Were you having that? Were you having what you consider to be rock bottoms, or what finally was getting your attention? I guess. I wonder if it was like a roller coaster. Or if you, you know, we hear a lot about people needing multiple attempts at sobriety, sometimes, right? And so were you having that? Were there periods where you would hit a low and stop for a while and then start again, or what was happening at that point?
Mike 16:24
Yeah, so earlier on, I would have those, like, lows, and I would say, I gotta stop. And I would maybe go, like, a week where I would be like, Okay, I’m gonna stay sober for a week. And, you know, the justifications and addiction or just unbelievable, I would be like, if I can go a week, then I’ve proved to myself that I don’t actually have a problem, because people that have a problem can’t go a week, and then as like a celebration for going a week, I would use again, because I proved to myself that I had control over it. And that’s like an obsession that they teach you about in Alcoholics Anonymous, that everyone with addiction has the obsession to control and manage their use, and if you feel like you’re in control of it, then you’ve convinced yourself it’s not a problem. So earlier on, I had more of an ability to do those types of things where I was like, I’m gonna go to dinner and I’m gonna prove to myself that I can just have two beers. And if I do that, then I’m okay. I had more of an ability to, like, have those stretches of sobriety, just by, like, white knuckling it early on and then later on, you know, it just progressed. It really was, like, daily use for everything, and me convincing myself that it wasn’t a problem revolved around getting some type of positive affirmation from someone, so there’s still a ton of secrecy going on. Like, if I could get my boss to say, Oh, you did a good job with that project. Or if I could leave a situation where I knew that I was under the influence of multiple substances and I didn’t feel like the person knew, then I would be like, Okay, it’s not that big of a deal. So see, it’s super common in addiction. A lot of people don’t realize it, but when someone thinks of an addict, they think of someone that’s like, belligerent. It’s so obvious that they’re under the influence all the time, and that is the case for some people, but there’s also a lot of people that seem like they’re functioning, but they really have a serious problem with addiction, and that was the camp that I fell in, is I had to keep it a secret, and was very, very concerned about people finding out, if that makes sense. So, yeah,
Krista Nash 18:33
No, it does make sense. So then, Was it really that your wife got pregnant, that was the turning point, or what was the big thing that, you know, said I actually am going to try to stop?
Mike 18:44
Yeah, so when my ex wife got pregnant, I had made an internal promise that I had to quit. I was going to quit everything by the time she was born, because I knew that it just wasn’t a healthy way to bring a child into the world. Or there was a part of me that knew that I wasn’t my best self living like that. And so as the date got closer and closer that my daughter was supposed to be born, and I wasn’t making any type of improvements, of cutting down, if anything, life was getting more stressful, and I was turning to it more and more. And then by the time my daughter was born and a few months after that, I was really facing the reality that I have no control over it, that I needed help, like I was starting to realize that the only way I was going to be able to stop is if I tried to tell someone the truth. And there were dynamics of our marriage that were really unhealthy at that point too, and lots more fighting and lots more negative interactions and going to bed angry with each other. And there was kind of like an instance where we had a big fight right after my ex wife’s family visited us. They were coming to visit our daughter who had been born, and celebrate Thanksgiving, and right when they left. Left, there was like, all of a sudden, there was just zero communication between me and my ex wife, and it was just this weird, like we put on a good show for family that were in town, and pretended like we had it all together. And then the second they left, it was just so dark that, in combination with me realizing how many secrets I was keeping and how I truly was unable to beat this addiction on my own.t That’s when I hit, kind of like a rock bottom. It was in December of 21 right after, yeah, they came for Thanksgiving, and then it was like they stayed into early December, I believe. And right after our extended family left, I hit what you would call, you know, my rock bottom. And the first person I opened up to was actually my stepdad, and then after that, my mom, I basically was just like, I have to tell you something. I’ve been using substances every day, and I can’t go a day without using substances, and I’m really scared, like, I don’t even know what to do, yeah, what was their advice? You know, they loved me and they cared about me. And initially they were, like, they were very surprised, but they weren’t mad at me, you know, which is what I was expecting, is like, people are just gonna totally freak out at me and condemn me. And they just made it known that they wanted to help me. And then, as I like, really started to share more details about how much use there actually was, they kind of were like, we think that you should go to an inpatient rehab, because it kind of reached the level where we don’t feel like we’re comfortable knowing what to do, right? So, yeah, I made that decision and agreed to check myself into a 30 day rehab. And at the time, my ex wife was very supportive of that.
Krista Nash 21:43
Do you think she knew it had gotten that bad, or was she aware of it?
Mike 21:47
She didn’t know it had gotten that bad, but I also think that she was aware that something was wrong, like she really wasn’t happy in the marriage either. It’s just a weird thing for people that are really close to someone with addiction, because they can be kind of sucked in as well. And when we’re in the midst of our addiction, we’re very dishonest, not just with other people, but with ourselves. We’re trying to convince ourselves so she didn’t know the full extent, and she couldn’t have, because I was trying to keep it a secret and trying to tell her everything was okay.
Krista Nash 22:16
Were you doing things like, I don’t know, hiding alcohol, hiding the extra pills and things like that, you know, doing them when she wasn’t watching things like that,
Mike 22:24
Absolutely, yeah, I would like, say, I’m just gonna have like, one beer and that way, like, if she smelled it on my breast, she would think that’s what it was from. But then Secretly, I would go take, you know, be drinking hard alcohol in secret. There’s a lot of hiding, hiding alcohol, a lot of like, trying to replace a big bottle that was gone all of a sudden or gone much more quickly than it should have been, you know, all that typical behavior, right?
Krista Nash 22:53
Like filling up bottles and things like that. Yeah. Okay, so then, and probably with her being pregnant, maybe, is that what changed her from doing some of those, some of that drinking behavior herself? So did she have a big change during that time?
Mike 23:07
She did. Yeah. She was completely sober during the whole pregnancy. That was very helpful for her being able to make that decision. She kind of continued with some drinking after the birth of our daughter, while I was getting sober there. I mean, I don’t know how much detail we want to go into. There were some periods of her drinking pretty heavily during this whole kind of trying to settle the divorce, but throughout the entire pregnancy, she stayed sober, which was good.
Krista Nash 23:32
So is it fair to say that when your now ex wife was pregnant, that really gave her the clarity, because she wasn’t using alcohol anymore. Did she stop drinking during that time? And did that kind of reset her expectations for living?
Mike 23:47
Yeah, getting pregnant like she’s always wanted to be a mom, and that was just huge for her motivation to, like, stop drinking. And it just gave her definitely a new source of just excitement and hope and so, yeah, that was a that was key for her to stop drinking.
Krista Nash 24:03
So then you missed your little self deadline, the deadline you had put upon yourself to get sober before your daughter was born, and then you’d have this bad experience with the post family visit, where you felt you finally were getting real with yourself, and had to tell your mom and step dad and they suggested rehab. So, and you said that your ex was your now ex was supportive of that. So did you complete, what was it like, a 30 day rehab?
Mike 24:30
Yeah, I completed a 30 day rehab. And then part of the like post treatment plan was that they highly recommended doing, like, an IOP or intensive outpatient program, okay? And so before leaving the 30 day inpatient rehab, I had come up with a plan of like a IOP that I wanted to complete that was six months,
Krista Nash 24:52
Okay. And was your ex supportive of that too? She was okay. How did rehab go? I mean, was it. It. You know, we don’t often hear from people about how it was. I mean, was it horrible? Was it like all this, like stories you see, like in the movies of, you know, shaking, detox kind of stuff. Did that happen to you?
Mike 25:11
Yeah, I had sweats, shakes for several days. They kind of help you detox. Was it like cold turkey? Yes, yeah, my alcohol can actually be the most dangerous way to quit cold turkey. You can have seizures. And, like I said, it wasn’t necessarily my drug of choice. I had all these other drugs that were in the mix, so I wasn’t in danger of, like, dying from withdrawal, thankfully, but definitely felt, you know, mild withdrawal, and then
Krista Nash 25:38
you get out, were you able to see your daughter at all and your wife at the time. During the rehab the inpatient…
Mike 25:44
About two weeks in, we started to, like, zoom and do some like phone calls. I think every place is different, but they were pretty intentional about saying, like, you just need it. You really just need a break from all of that, and you need to focus on yourself. And sometimes there are many unhealthy dynamics with different family members that they try and just protect you from in those first couple weeks, one thing that was absolutely life changing for me in rehab was I was surrounded by incredible people that had really similar life stories to me, and I heard people open up and tell the truth, specifically about like pornography addiction and sexual history, or sexual abuse and infidelity. And I sat in there for a couple weeks listening to other people tell the truth, and it took me that long to open up myself, so I was in there still like no one can know this about me, like I’m gonna take this to the grave. I can’t do it because I hate myself so much for it, and as I heard people open up about their story and seeing the love and acceptance that they were given and the grades that they were given, and then learning about how it’s actually really common with addiction for there to be a sexual addiction in the mix, or decisions of infidelity combined with addictive behaviors, to just learn about how common it actually was, and to know there wasn’t just me, and that it didn’t define me as a person, Totally life changing, and so I opened up in rehab about all of that stuff for the first time ever. No one in my life knew about any of that, all the way back to, like, elementary school stuff that had happened, and that was truly a turning point for me in my recovery is to just like, transition into the realm of honesty, like actually telling the truth and not just being a compulsive liar was huge.
Krista Nash 27:45
Yeah, and I know just that. That’s part of why you agreed to come on to talk today, because I think you know enough already, right? Like helping other people understand that you do have to start telling the truth to get to the other side of it. Right? Absolutely. So then what happened after that? So you started, you came out during the IOP, then did you then have to start to come clean, to your act, you know, you’re now ex. Is that why? Like, things started going south again, or what happened that made the marriage not survive this?,
Mike 28:13
You think, yeah, so we started counseling immediately after I got out of rehab, and I had been telling people in rehab, like, I don’t know if I have the courage to tell her, it’s going to destroy her. I just, I need help. I’m terrified. And had actually different responses, like some people, surprisingly, were like, if you never go back to it, you don’t have to tell her. But that just was never going to work for me, like carrying that, and she deserved to know. So I had some really good people that told me, like she deserves to know the truth. And so I told our marriage counselor early when we started going, and she said the same thing. She was like, you have to tell her like she deserves to know and she deserves to have all the information. And so that happened in one of our marriage counseling sessions. And understandably, she immediately asked me to move out.
Krista Nash 29:04
What was it that she didn’t know? Just the pieces about the the infidelity
Mike 29:08
The infidelity, yeah. That had happened really for the last time, like almost three years prior. So that was particularly painful for her, knowing that it had happened earlier on in the marriage, and that she had just been lied to about so much for so long.
Krista Nash 29:26
I mean, you’re sharing so much personal information but if this is too personal, just tell me you don’t have to answer this. But was it more like an affair you were having, or more just like one off kind of incidents with people?
Mike 29:37
One off incidents with people?
Krista Nash 29:41
Ok, so never was, like, a long term relationship with somebody? No, I don’t know if that would be better or worse, right? I mean, just different, yeah. Okay, so she said, That’s it. I want you to move out. Yeah?
Mike 29:54
She said, I want you to move out. I need space. And totally understood that. Kind of expected that, and so I moved into a sober living facility that the IOP program I was in offered to people in the program. And I think it was around three or four days after I moved out, I had gotten word from my ex that she had left with our daughter and gone to stay with her family.
Krista Nash 30:20
Okay? And so, how old is your daughter?
Mike 30:23
Then she was three to four, five months old at that time, okay?
Krista Nash 30:27
And so, how did she tell you? She texted you or something, or called you, which left you know what happened?. She said, I need some space or what?
Mike 30:37
Yeah, I just need space. I need some support for my family right now. And, yeah, get the support that I need.,
Krista Nash 30:44
Okay, and so what happened then, over the next few months? Did you move back into your place, or did you stay at sober living?
Mike 30:50
I stayed at sober living, and I’m really glad I did, because, yeah, it was a really new, dark and scary time, and for people that are struggling with addiction, like it really does not take a lot to use again, just really unhealthy coping mechanisms for dealing with stress. And so it’s essential to be around people, like 24/7 especially, early on. So I stayed in the sober living and was in this really weird situation of trying to know what the best thing for me to do was because the advice I was getting is like, you have to prioritize your recovery, because if you don’t get sober, you’re not going to have a marriage or a daughter, and I know you want to go out or be with them to make it up, you’re not going to be successful in going out there unless you prioritize your recovery first. So it was a weird thing to come to grips with, is like, really loving them. The best was actually taking care of myself, yeah,
Krista Nash 31:45
So how long then was the break? I mean, there was no filing for divorce at this point, right,
Mike 31:50
Right, no filing for divorce at this point. Yeah. Is just really, really difficult being in two different states and being disconnected in that way. You know, I was learning so much about addiction and what it means, and it really was my kind of like I was all in, you know, I was going to AA meetings and all my free time and participating in groups and activities with the IOP program. And she was suffering tremendously, and it was very difficult for us to, like, get on the same page about my story. And obviously she was hurting so much that it was hard for her to even empathize with my kind of, like, the suffering that I was going through at the same time. Even though a lot of our suffering was my fault, it was just a really, really tough time as far as us being able to understand each other and connect, yeah.
Krista Nash 32:43
And in the midst you have this tiny new daughter who is only a few months old still. I mean, you basically didn’t know her at that time, really, right? I mean, you didn’t have very much time with her, yeah.
Mike 32:52
And even just my efforts to like, see her over zoom were difficult, because my ex was very upset with me, obviously. And there was an element of her not wanting, you know, just feeling the pain and how horrible a person I was, and not wanting our daughter to be exposed to me. There was an element of that. So even just my efforts to call were a challenge at times, and I can’t fault her for how upset she was, you know.
Krista Nash 33:19
So for people who don’t know, I mean, this is about where I came into the story, or I guess a little, maybe a little after this, but it takes six months, really, for jurisdiction, or the authority of a court, to have power over a child. They have to have a home state, in the place where the divorce is going to be filed for the child to have the court to have jurisdiction over the child. Six months is really the minimum. There’s some other things too that lead into whether home state jurisdiction is in which state home jurisdiction lands. But, yeah, essentially, what happened is she waited six months after arriving in Colorado, and then filed right away, right for divorce. Yep, that’s right, okay. And so at that point you got served, I think, right around your daughter’s first birthday, right? Yeah, on her birthday, okay, do you think there was any real plans to try to get back together during that time? Or you think that really like when she moved that was kind of it?
Mike 34:10
I know that it was over much earlier than I expected. I do think now, looking back on it, I know that it was just a complicated time. I think her emotions were all over the place. I do think that she was considering it at times. So I don’t want to like, like,
Krista Nash 34:26
You mean considering staying together? Yeah, yeah. Okay, so you end up getting served basically on your daughter’s first birthday. So what happened? Did you move at that point? Or is that when you and I started talking, like, what was the timing of you starting to kind of lawyer up and figure out what was going on next.
Mike 34:43
At that time, I had graduated from my intensive outpatient program, which was a six month program, and so the goal was already to move out to Colorado, so I kind of already been taking the steps and selling some of our stuff, and packing up our house and. Yeah, so within like, a few weeks of that, I was very, very fortunate to get connected with you. I, you know, I was told that I needed a lawyer. And, yeah, just so, so grateful that I got connected with you.
Krista Nash 35:12
Well, it was interesting from my perspective, because, you know, frankly, I would only, you know, I talk a lot about attorneys needing to really tell people the hard truth and not take sort of, I think, the wrong side of the case. And, you know, normally, if I just sort of got a cold call on this story, I probably would say I’m not the best fit, you know, because, you know, it’s a bad story. It’s bad. You were in a bad place,e at least previously in a bad place. Do you remember me being a little bit bossy with you, like maybe tell listeners about how that was, because I certainly hope you know, I’m really big about attorneys not being echo chambers and just sort of saying what clients want to hear, and really giving the hard truth to people so that we’re doing what’s best for kids. So what do you remember of that consultation we did, or sort of my approach with you?
Mike 35:59
Yeah, exactly what you just said is not telling me what I wanted to hear, but telling me the truth and what I needed to hear, and letting me know that there were some things that you expected for me, and if I didn’t follow through, then it was not going to work out, and
Krista Nash 36:16
meaning I wouldn’t keep representing you also, also it wouldn’t work out For you get any parenting time, coincidentally, right? But, yeah, yeah, I do remember saying, like, you know, okay, I’m going to take your case, I’m going to take this on faith, and you better not step the wrong way off the straight path, basically right. I mean, essentially right. You’ve got to make the effort. You can’t be trying to lie or hide or scam me to, you know, you gotta, you have to do the things I ask you to do. So, I mean, to your credit, you did those things. How did you take that? Just out of curiosity from me. I mean, I think there’s a tendency for people to try to go hire people that will not be that way with you, you know, how was that? Was that rough? Was it welcome? How did you take that?
Mike 36:58
It was welcome, you know, it was in combination with you being recommended to me by incredible people that were really helping me out and had gotten used to being told the truth about my situation, I experienced a lot of love and grace, but I also experienced a lot of tough truths that I really needed to hear. And so it wasn’t always easy, though, there were moments where I was like, No, I’ve got eight months sober. And I was like, you know, it was tough to hear. It was like, well, it doesn’t matter you’re doing sober link and you’re doing a nail test and you’re doing so, like, there was a little bit of resistance in me for some of these things, yeah, and just…
Krista Nash 37:33
To be clear, so what, what ended up happening is, I said, Look, congratulations. I’m so glad that you’re telling me that you’ve been sober, you know, but I need, and the court will need, and Mom will need to look at this on an ongoing sobriety basis. And so you are getting on sober link, which is one of the main breathalyzer tools companies we’ll talk about on other podcast episodes, but essentially face recognition handheld device that gives real time breathalyzer results, and it’s hard to beat so because of the lot of the technology, and it is pretty sophisticated. So sober link, I don’t remember, how often did I tell you needed to do sober link, because I know you just did this voluntarily as part of our strategy, really, to prove that you were a fit parent. So how many times a day did you do that, or something like that?
Mike 38:23
Yeah, I think it was three, yeah, like a morning, midday, and then evening,
Krista Nash 38:27
And I think, if I remember right, you did that without a miss, like, I think you did them all. I don’t think there were any positives, nope. So that was great. And you did that for quite some time.
Mike 38:37
How long were you on that? It was over six months, okay?
Krista Nash 38:41
And then, in addition to that, we sent you to get nail tests done. And how many times did you do that? I think twice, okay? And again, this was all proactive things that we did to prove that you were capable of parenting your daughter, right? You know, a lot of people sit around and wait, you know, I talk with other people on the podcast about, you know, really, people that maybe were in your ex wife’s shoes, who contact an attorney and they’re trying to gather evidence to prove because a lot of people aren’t admitting it at the time they get divorced, they’re not, and the person who’s got the sobriety problem isn’t willing to admit the problem. And so it puts the cat and mouse game in full force, and that mother or father who doesn’t have the sobriety problem, is in a position where they have to prove that there’s a problem. So you can imagine, if your ex were trying to prove this before you were ready to admit it, that might be a different situation that we would have. But you, fortunately, were admitting things you had already gone through, even though you went through it. I mean, I suppose an attorney could have told you you’ve already proven it, but I didn’t think it was sufficient. And I’m glad, I’m sure you’re glad too, with the outcome that we’re going to get to here in the story that you did take more effort, because I think it became quite incontrovertible that you were sober and had been sober for a long time. So we did nail tests voluntarily. We didn’t even tell the people we were doing it on, you know, your wife or her attorney, we didn’t even note that we were doing it until much, much later, when we already had months of evidence. So we did Sober Link, we did nail tests. Do you recall we also got a psychological evaluation on our own? Do you remember that? Yeah. Do you remember fighting me on that a little bit?
Mike 40:17
I do. Yeah, I do. And I’m so glad that we did it. And, yeah, you also had me go get, like, a car seat installation certificate. And even though I was the one that it had put our car seat in when we left the hospital and things like that, everything, you know, you prepared me so well, and you had me take a parenting class as well. Yeah, I mean, there was a little bit of resistance in me, right? Because I was kind of under attack as far as, like, my ability to be a dad, to be invested. the other
Krista Nash 40:50
And the other thing we did was, and I think I recall even talking to your family about this, they thought it would be better to get you your own place to live in. And we considered whether you should get your own apartment, and you had some very kind people who were willing to let you live with them. I think that was a good decision that we made on that because I think, I mean, I’m interested in what you now think, but my perspective was it gave you the support so that you weren’t having these like, lonely periods of time where you might have been more susceptible to failure in your sobriety walk, and it also gave some protection around other adults who were trustworthy, being present so that you could start some parenting time. Do you recall that? Do you think that ended up being a good decision?
Mike 41:35
Oh, absolutely. And, yeah, yeah, you were the only person saying that. Like everyone else in my life was like, Maybe you should, yeah, let’s try and find your own spot, and thinking that that was the best chance for me getting more time with my daughter, and that would not the right way to go. Yeah, so you were the only person kind of recommending the opposite and that was absolutely the best decision to make at that time, was to be around people and have other great parents, great family involved in the situation, and who now know my daughter really well and have great friendships with her now.
Krista Nash 42:13
So, I think it gave mom some comfort, because it wasn’t just you in an apartment, you know, lying or hiding, or whatever the worry would be. And, you know, I guess we skipped a little part two. I think we did initially start to get you because your daughter was really young at the time when you first got out to, you know, you first came to Colorado again, and we were able to get you some parenting time. But I remember that was a little bit rough early on, because there was this idea that mom wanted to be there all the time, and that wasn’t working. And I think you put up with that for a little while, but it wasn’t working that well. So it was a little bit of a rough go of it, as I recall, to get to the point where you could spend some time without mom there. Do you recall that? Yeah, yeah, that was hard. I mean, you break trust. I actually have a researcher who’s going to come talk about incremental trust building. You know, when you’ve how important that is for the co-parenting dynamics. You know, you’ve got a mom who’s been deeply injured by her husband in this intimate relationship, and you’ve got a baby, a tiny little kid who can’t speak, can’t really report what you’re doing. That’s just such a hard thing. It’s hard, and I respect Mike so much that you’re saying that you know that it was hard for her, and it was reasonably hard for her, because you did lie and do a lot of things that made that trust be broken, so rebuilding that took quite some time. When you say, I don’t know if you’re even there yet, but you’re way better than you were. You know, back then, when your daughter was only one and you were a little fresher in your sobriety, would you say that broken trust was one of the hard parts,
Mike 43:41
Absolutely, yeah, really hard. And also, again, going back to you telling me the hard truths that I needed to hear too, like that I had people like you and other people reminding me of the damage that had been done and that I needed to have realistic expectations about, yeah, how much trust I actually deserve, really and and how to build that back incrementally. You were huge and helping me to keep that perspective like I need to take some responsibility and accountability for the decisions I’ve made, and I need to manage my expectations for how quickly things are going to progress so
Krista Nash 44:17
I recall, or I might be recalling it not quite right. So you’ll have to correct me, I believe we did a temporary parent agreement kind of before we got to the end, right? Do you recall that? Yeah, okay, and so that gave you a little bit of extra time, but again, it was based on sort of a trust building model, where you didn’t have very many overnights, but we did move in that direction. Talk a little bit about that process of building that trust, in terms of having just like little bit more time with your daughter over the ensuing months.
Mike 44:50
Yeah, so the first bit was literally just me going and pushing my daughter around the grocery store in a shopping cart when I would meet my ex and daughter. When she would run errands and I would just be there, and desperately wanted more time than that. And it was so, so difficult, but so, you know, again, like we said, understandable that that was at least the starting point, and then eventually, you know, we reached a point where I had, just like, some time by myself with my daughter, but at my ex’s house or at her parents house, and I would go over for an hour, and we would just sit and play on the floor and and spend time together, and we would be kind of alone in the room, but obviously there my ex was around and her parents were around, just real, real small steps forward and really difficult the whole time, because I desperately wanted to prove that, like, I can be a good dad and I can take my daughter out and be totally safe with her, but had to be reminded of, yeah, the reality of the situation. Then we got to a point where I would pick her up after work, and I would drive 30 minutes home. We would get home like around four, and I would have to have her back by seven. So it was, like, a real quick turnaround. I would make her dinner but it was progress, and it was building trust. So like, the more of those interactions where it’s like, Yep, I pick her up and she gets a really healthy dinner and I have her back right on time, and demonstrating that I’m reliable and that I’m consistent and that I’m communicative, you know, like, I changed her diaper, and, you know, even still, like, just showing that I’m watching out for like, you know, changes in her poop consistency, and right, what that means, and paying attention To like, her behavior, like if she’s seems a little warm, or if she might have a little bit of sickness, and, yeah,
Krista Nash 46:45
You just had to be really consistent. And I think we had, like, a little kind of mini step up plan, in our temporary plan, it’s really common for people to just, you know, want to just indicate, I want 50/50, right now, you know and it, I think that if we hadn’t have done what we did to prove your sobriety, to for you, to maintain your sobriety, for us to have so many pieces of evidence to show that you were safe, from the classes, to the certificate for the car seat to the not only just the things you had done before the rehab, the IOP, the You actually also had other things you did. You jumped into some kind of counseling and accountability in Colorado, if I recall right, like you were already in having people who were not just the family that was helping you, but other people that were helping you to have some accountability. So we had that. We had those people who would have been able to testify. We had letters from those different rehab and IOP facilities. I think you had done some psychological work even previously, before you moved to Colorado. We had that. We had the psych eval that we had done. We had all the silver links testing, the nail tests, all of this, really a whole pile that did demonstrate that you were a safe and capable parent, and also the slow, steady trust building and, you know, time that was just increasing with your daughter, so that by the time we got to the end of the case, there really was not a way for mom to argue that you couldn’t have a significant amount of parenting time, right? I mean, isn’t that? We did that as a strategy, and because you stayed sober, it worked, right? And you didn’t do anything stupid, frankly, right? You did it, but we also did that work, and I appreciate you letting me lead you that way, because, you know, I think we would have been in a much different place at the end of the case, we actually were able to settle your case without going to court. It wasn’t totally pain free. I think there was a change of attorneys, if I’m remembering right, and that was a little bit hard to kind of have to start negotiating with different attorney on on mom’s part, but I think if I had been a fly on the wall of that attorney’s office with her, I mean, either one of her attorneys, I think it would have been very hard to argue that everything didn’t point toward you having more time, but that’s because of the strategic work we did. It’s also even more so because of you taking it so seriously that you need a little life change. Because it doesn’t always go this way. I mean, a lot of times it doesn’t, and you know, parents, then it puts the other parent in such a terrible position. So a couple things. How long did it take us to get from the filing to the actual divorce and that agreement that you were going to have 50/50 parenting time, actually, which is kind of unusual, really, for such a young child. I’m not even going to say that’s necessarily the very best thing for a child all in this a child that age, although in this case, I think there were some other dynamics, like mom was working from home a lot, and had the ability to have almost all of the daytime time with the child. So there were some dynamics that made it so that, I think it was best for your daughter to have those overnights with you, because mom had so so much of the daytime as well as all of her overnights. So it. Like, as most people would think of, a 50/50 where I’d say the child was probably with Mom, what, like 70% of the time, or something like that. Wouldn’t you say, yeah, yeah. So it was 50/50 because we look at overnights for that. But how long did it take then to get for you? Just remind me how long it took to get from the filing to the actual divorce.
Mike 50:16
It took exactly a year.
Krista Nash 50:19
In that year, you patiently proved yourself, continued to prove yourself. You seem like an unusual person in an addiction situation, because most people have more relapses. Wouldn’t you say?
Mike 50:31
Yes, yep, it’s really common. It’s rare for you to get sober on your first real attempt. But I mean, if we’re being totally honest. There were many, many attempts, yeah, before that, personally, individually, to try and be sober, many failed attempts, many relapses, but when the truth came out and I really hit the rock bottom, I went all in.,
Krista Nash 50:56
So I’m curious, because one of the things we’re going to be talking about, you know, at length on the podcast, is this sort of approach that the tools that we have in the approach we have to look for addiction issues, and they’re pretty hardcore. You know, it’s like, if you relapse, a lot of the sobriety, substance use evaluators, for example, will do plans. It’s like, if you have any relapses, or you have any drinks at all, for example, right then no parenting time. You know, they can be very, very strict and strenuous. And there’s this whole nother side of addiction recovery research and treatment planning that is a little bit, I guess, I’d say, more holistic, involving a little bit more grace that they think allows people to end up ultimately being more successful. And I shared this with you a little bit as we were preparing for this today, so I guess I’m just curious, what’s your reaction to that, considering I’ve given you some feedback on it before we started here, what is your reaction to this idea that kindness and Grace have, and where are the lines of where that would be too much and you would, you think somebody would abuse that?
Mike 52:00
Yeah, man, it’s so complex. It’s a tough question to answer, but I think that shame is much more common than we realize early on. I think we can’t always tell everything that’s going on behind the scenes with someone that’s struggling with addiction, because it does cause a lot of damage, and there is a lot of dishonesty, but I do think that especially early on, that ability to safely be open and honest without being labeled or condemned is key to freedom. And then at the same time, there needs to be some really, really serious truth communicated to the person around how selfish the behavior is and how much damage is caused, but it needs to be balanced with that grace and being treated like a person and not labeling you completely as a person.
Krista Nash 52:55
So as you look back now, how far out are we from the divorce at this point are we so your daughter is now three years old. How’s it going? I mean, has the trust been being rebuilt? I know she’s remarried, and you are getting remarried. Congratulations. I couldn’t be more thrilled. I look forward to going to your wedding and celebrating with you, and just so happy to see that you have stayed on this path. What are your insights now that you’ve been how far past the divorce are we now?
Mike 53:25
Think we are about a year and a half.
Krista Nash 53:29
So a year and a half out from that, and having gone through and I should have asked you, how long was your marriage
Mike 53:34
it was, let’s see, from 2015 to 2022,
Krista Nash 53:42
About seven years. Yeah, that’s what I was thinking was too. So, such a long journey, and you’re not very old, right? And what are your insights now, I mean, if you were talking to, I guess maybe I don’t know, a couple different audiences. One, maybe people in your shoes who are or in the shoes you were in, you know, what are your insights about how important it was to you and your daughter and your life and your future that you got real about this and got it taken care of? And then what hope or advice would you give to somebody who would have been in your ex wife’s shoes, right, of how to get back into it? You know, how to move forward through this whole thing, and be able to try to, like, build trust with somebody who is actually demonstrating sobriety.
Mike 54:23
Yeah, advice that I would give is get open and honest early. Don’t mess around when it comes to addictive behaviors and unhealthy coping mechanisms with stress and then even with things like trauma or fear, anxiety, like those types of things, just get open and honest earlier than I did, you know, and I wish that I would have opened up about much more, much earlier, because people are there to help and love on you, and there’s forgiveness, and keeping stuff inside and trying to deal with it yourself is just a recipe for a really. An unhappy and unhealthy life. So that’s the advice that I would give. And then on the other side, you know, for someone like in my ex spouse’s position, that’s a really tough one, because we got married really young. We were immature in a lot of ways. There were unhealthy dynamics in our relationship, probably red flags that I think were not good indicators for the health of the relationship going into the marriage. And so there is an element of, again, of bringing other healthy people into the mix, being open and honest, bringing people that you trust into the mix, as far as like mentorship and counseling and premarital counseling, all that stuff I would recommend before jumping into a marriage and then later on, you know, like for someone in my spouse’s position, I guess, goodness, it’s hard to, like put anything on her, because a lot of this was not her fault. But there is a lot of, I think, education around addiction, that if you choose to participate in learning about it, there can be some healing, and it can make it a little less personal. I think so, to the extent that someone’s able and willing to kind of go on that journey of understanding what addiction is and what it does to people. It can, it can also help that person not feel as much of the pain and the anger.
Krista Nash 56:21
I think that’s really insightful. And so if you had continued on the path you were on, how do you think that would have affected your daughter? Can you even imagine that at this point? I’m sure she brings you all kinds of joy. Can you imagine what that would have looked like?
Mike 56:34
Oh, man, been more destruction and pain and sadness and dishonesty, and not even close to me being my best self and a healthy person, you know, just so distracted, so not present, really selfish in a lot of ways I just don’t even want to think of, you know, I never want to go back to that life and how much that hurts people. So me getting free, and I have people telling me this is, like, the best thing that you can do for your daughter is to really address the stuff that’s going on with you, because she’s not going to have the dad that she needs if you continue down this, this path, and it’s still there, but it gets a little better every day. You asked just a little bit ago, and I apologize I didn’t answer just like how things are going now, like the pain from the past crops up, but it’s also there’s healing that’s happening all the time. So it’s definitely not perfect. Continuing to build that trust, continuing to build our ability to communicate like me and my ex, and continuing to both believe that we really want what’s best for our daughter, and then that comes first. And there’s definitely still hard times about like having to split time with her, you know, and coming to agreements on holidays, and that can still be really difficult, because we both just want to be with our daughter. But ultimately, since the divorce has been finalized, it has been an upward trajectory, which I’m so grateful for.
Krista Nash 58:06
Well, Mike, I just can’t thank you enough. Is there anything else you want to share? I just am so grateful that you are sharing with people, because I think if people continue to hide in their shame, right, and not share, I know sharing has been a big part of your journey and freedom toward acknowledging and sort of trying to redeem what you’ve done right so I’m just grateful that you’re willing to share your story so openly, because it really there’s so many people that are living in that shame and in not getting the help that’s out there for addiction. There’s so many different my podcast notes we’ll all have on yours, and others will have some different resources and places for people to go. But I just am encouraged that for anyone listening, that there is hope and that you really can change the approach that you’re taking to substances and to addictive behaviors. You can go get help for trauma. You can become the kind of parent, and fortunately, you were able to do that when your daughter was really, really, really little, hopefully she won’t even remember the days that were darker. So I mean, I’m just so thrilled that you’ve gotten to this point, and that you have now years behind you in the sobriety journey, and that you’re able to share and really give hope to so many other people. So I appreciate you sharing that with me and with everybody else. Is there anything else you would like to share before we end?
Mike 59:25
Yeah, just It wouldn’t be right for me to leave this part out. And part of my journey and story is a spiritual one, and it’s encountering Christ, and that story of we are all broken and we are enslaved to our unfortunately proclivity to make bad decisions and to bring a lot of pain and suffering into the world. And part of that freedom is recognizing that I need a savior and that I need help. And that’s been, you know, unbelievable. Amazing to develop a personal relationship with who I call the God of the universe, and prayer, constant prayer was a part of my story, going to God in my pain and in my shame, really, and finding forgiveness there, finding love there, and then also with the incredible people in my church community too, of like them having personal relationship with Christ and that causing them to, you know, based on the forgiveness that they’ve received, to go out and love and forgive other people, that totally changed my life, too. So I needed to mention that.
Krista Nash 1:00:39
I appreciate mentioning that, and I think it’s so interesting, too, that you came out of, you know, a purported Christian background, right? And went to college and heard that it wasn’t like you hadn’t been exposed to that before, that forgiveness and grace and the spiritual pieces of that, but finding a way to make that your own. And I mean, talk about grace, right? Like the grace to embrace that and realize that there wasn’t shame, and that, I mean, I guess I mentioned the word redemption, right? That redemption is possible, and I suppose it’s probably a big part of why you’re willing to share too, is to share that forgiveness, right? And the ability to have the shame covered, right?
Mike 1:01:15
Yeah I was exposed to religion, and for people familiar with Christianity, like you know, you can talk about the difference between a religion and then a personal relationship with Christ. And so I was going through the motion, I was playing the game, I was acting like I was this good person, and all the while, didn’t really believe that I was that bad of a person and didn’t think I really needed help or a Savior, and yeah, I was playing the game, and then really, when I truly encountered Christ, and what that actually means, it totally transformed my life.
Krista Nash 1:01:52
Thank you for sharing that, because a lot of people don’t share that part of their lives. And you know, maybe that’s part of why the decision to stop has stuck with you, right? Because, you know, you hear a lot of bits and starts to do this for a lot of people, and maybe that is that missing piece for you that you know really made a very big difference. And so I appreciate you adding that and just explaining and sharing so much just of this very personal story. Mike, I can’t thank you enough, and it was an honor to represent you, and I’m so thrilled for you that you are on a path that is being an amazing dad, and I’m sure you’re going to be an amazing husband and all of the things. So it’s been a pleasure to work with you, and you know it’s an honor to have represented you and to be able to call you friend now. So I appreciate you being here so much, and I just thank you for your transparency, really.
Mike 1:02:42
Yeah, thank you, Krista. I couldn’t have done it without you.
Krista Nash 1:02:46
I appreciate that. All right. Well, thanks everyone for listening today. And if you think this would help somebody else on their journey, please, of course, share this with others so that more people can take the path that Mike took toward really engaging in wholeness and health and sobriety and all of that, making him the outstanding dad that he is today.
Intro/Outro 1:03:07
Krista is licensed in Colorado and Wyoming. So if you are in those states and seek legal services, please feel free to reach out via Children First Family Law.com that is our website where everyone can find additional resources to help navigate family law as always, be sure to like, subscribe and share the podcast with others you think would benefit from this content. Thankyou.