In today’s episode of the Children First Family Law podcast, Krista is joined by Dr. Susan Fletcher, a licensed psychologist in both Texas and Colorado, known for her deep experience with court-involved families and child-focused evaluations. Together, they explore what children truly experience during and after a divorce and how parents and professionals can better support their transition to life in two homes.
Dr. Fletcher explains how children internalize language like “custody” and “visitation” and offers practical suggestions for reframing these terms in ways that support emotional resilience. She stresses the importance of maintaining consistency, recognizing a child’s individual vulnerabilities, and reframing transitions as opportunities rather than losses. The conversation covers early intervention, therapist involvement, and the crucial role of in-home observations for professionals working with families post-divorce.
This episode also addresses why mental health providers may resist testifying in court, how board complaints create fear, and what professionals can do to better navigate the intersection of clinical care and legal involvement. Dr. Fletcher shares real-world experiences from both therapy and evaluations, bringing clarity to a complex and emotionally charged aspect of family law.
In this episode, you will hear:
- Children often absorb adult terminology like “custody” and “visitation” in ways that affect their sense of identity
- Simple language changes and reframes can support emotional safety during transitions
- Some kids adapt easily to two homes, while others need more structured emotional support
- In-home observations provide professionals with a clearer context for how children experience post-divorce life
- Fear of licensing complaints can prevent therapists from staying involved in court cases, even when their voices matter
- Parents can remain emotionally available without overwhelming their children
- Creating a strong support system helps families and professionals navigate ongoing changes
- Shifting focus from fear-based reactions to hopeful engagement promotes healthier outcomes
Resources from this Episode
www.childrenfirstfamilylaw.com
All states have different laws; be sure you are checking out your state laws specifically surrounding divorce. Krista is a licensed attorney in Colorado and Wyoming but is not providing through this podcast legal advice. Please be sure to seek independent legal counsel in your area for your specific situation.
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Divorce, Two Homes, and a Child’s Voice: What Parents and Professionals Need to Know, with Dr. Susan Fletcher Podcast Transcript
Susan Fletcher 00:00
We’re trying to help children form their opinions and their ability to adapt to having being a member of two households. So I think it’s important to consider different languages, like saying, okay, so you’re going to be with your dad at the house on Cherry Street this weekend, and then when I see you on Sunday we come back to the Main Street house. You know you’ll have everything you need to get ready for school the next morning. So that you talk about it, maybe in terms of the names of the streets, rather than dad’s house, mom’s house. Because many times what kids would say to me in therapy when a transition was occurring with a divorce is they would say, I feel like I’m left out of things. It’s mom’s house, dad’s house. What about my house? My house is where we’re all together, and they have to reformulate the way they think about things. So I find that some parents, when they use the name of the street, that isn’t a way to act like nothing bad is happening. It’s just a different way to frame it, instead of my possession time dad’s possession time, like we need to get away from using phrases like, when your dad has visitation. That’s like my friends who say, I’m going to go out, my husband’s going to babysit the kids. Okay, parents don’t babysit. They parent. So looking at language like, this is your dad’s parenting time, or this is your time with your father, and you’re going to have a blast. He’s going to take you to soccer practice. I’ll be there too, and I know he’s got some plans for y’all to go out to eat or say, you know your mom is going to pick up early because you all are going to go to church together. Being able to talk about parenting time versus possession and access and visitation also helps kids transition and start to deal with the fact that there now are two homes.
Intro/Outro 01:41
Welcome to the Children First Family Law podcast. Our host, Krista Nash, is an attorney, mediator, a parenting coordinator, and child advocate with a heart to facilitate conversations about how to help children flourish amidst the broken area of family law. As a child advocate in demand for her expertise throughout Colorado and as a speaker on these issues at a national level, Krista is passionate about facilitating and creatively finding solutions to approach family law matters in a way that truly focuses on the best interests of kids. Please remember this podcast is provided to you for information purposes only. No one on this podcast is representing you or giving you legal advice. As always, please enjoy this episode and be sure to like, subscribe and share the podcast with others you think would benefit from this content.
Krista Nash 02:30
Welcome to the Children First Family Law podcast, where we explore how to protect what matters most: our children through the complex journey of family transition. Today, we’re honored to speak with Dr Susan Fletcher, a Texas based psychologist, speaker and author of the book parenting in the Smart Zone. Dr Fletcher brings decades of experience working with families, courts and clinicians. She served on the Texas State Board of Examiners of Psychologists. She by Governor Abbott to the Behavioral Health Executive Council and played a key role in modernizing the therapist grievance process in Texas. In today’s episode, we’ll talk about what children need to thrive across two homes, how parents can avoid causing emotional harm to their children, and how professionals, lawyers, therapists and judges can do better.
Welcome to today’s episode of the podcast. I am really grateful today to have with us Dr. Susan Fletcher, who is a psychologist from Texas and also, more recently licensed in Colorado. Interestingly, everybody- don’t rush off and go grab her, because I’m going to try to take her for myself, just kidding, but I’m so glad to have you with us. She has a vast amount of information to share. It’s so hard to call down to even just an hour for sure. But welcome and thank you for being here.. I’m glad to be here so I know we’ve had a chance to have you sort of review a little bit of what the podcast audience is interested in, and we sort of have these two audiences of parents and professionals give us a little of your background that maybe would tip off to both sets why this would be interesting for them to listen to. o
Susan Fletcher 04:04
I had a clinical practice for over 25 years, just like many of the people out there that have a license in the mental health field, that that are on their own, I had a practice where I saw a majority of families, a lot of children, and in the early years of my practice, I started to feel very comfortable with the court environment, which is unusual for someone in my profession, but I was very comfortable with it because I worked a lot with kids, and I worked with populations that were court involved but not related to family law. And over time, I got to know a lot about families in different stages, where at some point may end up in two households due to a divorce. So I’ve seen families when they’re intact, when they’re struggling. I’ve done marital therapy. I work with kids just related to changes and the transition, and then over time, it just sort of occurred. It wasn’t a deliberate move on my part, but I started working more with court involved families that are involved in the family law system, so that is my specialty. Now that’s what I do. I don’t take any private referrals anymore. That was really sad for me, because I enjoyed seeing a lot of progress with people who were there voluntarily. And what I do now, a lot of times, I’m appointed by court to work with a family or provide an evaluation for the professionals that are listening to the podcast. And one interesting fun fact is that at a point in time I also left the profession and went to work at court and sciences. And what that is is that’s the company that was at one time, run by Dr. Phil McGraw, the one with the TV show and so in Texas, for people that are old enough to remember, there was a big case that was the cattlemen. They sued Oprah. And as part of that, Phil McGraw, who was actually a psychologist, is no longer licensed as a psychologist, but that’s a story for another time, but he started working in litigation because that was his area of interest in his research for his dissertation. And so soon after he finished with the Oprah trial and the Mad Cow Disease trial, I met him. Knew some people that knew him, and he somewhat courted me to become a part of his organization. So in that role, I was a litigation specialist, where I assisted experts in their testimony as well as fact witnesses, and also did mock trials and many things like that. So I worked for him for a period of time, and then came back to my practice, and so I’ve seen different sides of it. Working as a litigation specialist, I was part of a legal team assisting with trials, as well as, again, mock trials and things like that. So now I’m very comfortable. I’m very involved in the community of family law. I do a little bit of criminal law, but I really enjoy working in family law and working with families.
Krista Nash 06:54
So I know you also are an author of those books that you did. I’ve got parenting in the Smart Zone and Working in the Smart Zone. A little bit about those, just by way of introduction, too. I know those are what, 2005 and 2008 right?
Susan Fletcher 07:06
I wrote them some time ago, and that was when I had my clinical practice and saw families. I used to have worksheets that I would hand out to people that were dealing with some parenting challenges, or people that were dealing with relationship challenges, and they revolved around the theme of parenting, discipline versus punishment, as well as the area of emotional intelligence. So the first book that I wrote is called Parenting in the Smart Zone. And that was a book that just really was the assembly of the materials I was already providing to people I saw clinically. And so that was something that I found that was very useful, even now, there are times where that’s a book that I can provide to assist people with just general ideas about parenting. It’s not specific to divorce, which, let’s be real, even when two households are being established in a divorce situation, many of the parenting challenges can be those that they would have had, even in an intact family. The second book is about emotional intelligence and the importance of building trust, being able to communicate effectively, understand the emotions of others as well as express your own. And so if you look at it, it seems to have been the beginning of a lot of the work that I do with families that are core involved.
Krista Nash 08:20
That’s great. Super interesting. Well, we’ll make sure we link to those books too, so that people can find them. So let’s transition into talking about the child’s experience. Because I know that sometimes people, you get into divorce, and as professionals, we are looking at these families, it just kind of like a surgeon doing surgery. You do surgery every day. So it just becomes very normalized for us in the profession, whether that’s mental health professionals or judges or lawyers, but when parents go into this, into this shocking new phase of their life, they are desperate to understand how this will affect their kids. And I know you really have insight through your experience as to the child’s experience. So how can we understand this better with the impact of divorce and the impact on kids, and seeing it through child’s eyes?
Susan Fletcher 09:05
I think it’s a great question, because I think that gets lost, especially in the initial stages of a divorce. But I want to also establish something you and I know because of our professions, is that a majority, probably 80% of families that a divorce occurs in two households are being established, their kids do well. They tend to manage it well. They may not even be involved in litigation. It’s really the minority of families that are involved in litigation where there are difficulties that the parents are having making decisions for kids. So you and I know that. So what I’d like to do is just, just in general, say that most often, what the impact on kids is that they have a lot of why questions. No matter what age they are, they want to know, why is this happening? What’s going to happen? What can I expect? And so their questions, especially around the age, elementary, early, middle school, are really all about me, and that’s developmentally appropriate. They’re going to ask about themselves. They’re going to ask what this means. And adolescents also do that because they’re pretty egocentric, and that’s that’s typical for that age range. But there’s a difference for elementary aged children, because they really don’t have a lot of life experience. They may not really understand what it means in terms of their world or the concept of their family and how that may be adapted. So it’s important to really think about the impact on kids. They just want to know what to expect, and it’s important not to give them too much information. So they’re going to have questions you can predict, and many of those questions are going to be about how their life is going to change. I also think it’s important to note that we have to consider each child’s vulnerabilities. There are kids that just have a toolbox of resiliency, and then there are kids, for whatever reason, who are more vulnerable and don’t have a toolbox of resiliency already have trouble with change, like a teacher changing in mid school year or a best friend moving away. So it’s important to consider other changes that may have occurred in that child’s life in order to look at what that child’s needs may be.
Krista Nash 11:08
It’s interesting, because I use a lot with parents, a legal principle that I think really works, even though it’s a little in the weeds from law school. It’s this eggshell plaintiff idea, which is, if if you have a car, it’s a principle of tort and civil law where, if you’re probably aware of it, but just for the audience of if you are in a car accident, let’s say you’re driving down this road and you knock somebody going five miles per hour, and they end up with a traumatic brain injury because they happen to have a thin skull. That’s too bad you don’t get to go to court and say, when they sue you for all of their future medical care. You don’t get to say, Well, I mean, what are you talking about? It’s only five miles per hour. That’s just not reasonable. The idea is, you take these people, how you find them, and people have different proclivities. So I tell parents that all the time when they’ll say, when I’m in that best interest seat, representing a child’s best interest, and they’ll say, well, this is ridiculous. Like I barely did anything. Why won’t my kids see me? Or what are the problems? And we know those are all very complicated dynamics, but generally, the principle that you’re talking about, I think, is very important, that people present differently, and you have to recognize that parents usually have a pretty good innate knowledge of what how their kids present, that they’re more anxious, or another kid is maybe less so, or whatever. So I appreciate you making that point, because parents do seem to understand that. I say all the time to them, we’re taking these kids as we find them.
Susan Fletcher 12:24
I think it’s important to acknowledge that for parents, for moms and dads, or moms and moms dads and dads, that the transition for them as adults with a divorce also can throw them off course. They may not have access to some skills emotionally that they may have had under other circumstances. So we have to look at some short term situations where there may be a lack of an ability to grab the tools in their toolbox, whether you’re a parent or a child, but most often that is short term. And most kids and most parents do well after a divorce, long term, especially if the divorce had, if the marriage had some kind of situation that was domestic violence, all the other things that that we know might occur. So it’s important, I think, to cut yourself some slack if you’re a parent, because many times people are in a crisis mode during a transition with a divorce, and they may not recognize some of the subtle signs that kids may be showing that they’re struggling.
Krista Nash 13:21
I like that. I also like that u\you did make the point Dr. Fletcher, there are a lot of people who do divorce. Fine, we don’t say that enough on the podcast. I don’t know if I’ve ever said that on the podcast, or if any of my guests have ever said that, because I can get in this echo chamber of how toxic these cases are because that’s the work I do, right? I mean, I get appointed when they need somebody like me, and so I think that’s really, really important, because I hope people are tuning in and that there are a lot of people who can say that it went well. In fact, it makes me think I should have some people on who talk about how we did it really well, and it was fine. Kids can be fine. We know, Dr. Saini’s research on it’s really how you co-parent, right? It’s not the divorce itself. I mean, is that what you’ve seen? And I guess I’d ask, maybe transitioning into what are some of the most frequent emotional reactions or reactions that you hear from children when they hear about divorce with their parents?
Susan Fletcher 14:10
Well let’s also acknowledge that sometimes kids know what’s going to happen, and they aren’t surprised, right? They may have overheard something a friend’s family may have gone through something, or they may have secretly wished that it might occur because of whatever may be going on in the household. So really, that’s also something to consider is that kids are pretty smart kids over here, and sometimes it’s a relief for kids. And I don’t know that we say that enough. We’re not saying that people should get divorced. You know, what’s the word? Really, informally and just you know, see it as no big deal. It is a big deal, but, but let’s also acknowledge that many times it’s necessary, many times it creates opportunity for better growth for all the family members. And so sometimes kids feel a sense of relief. When kids don’t feel a sense of relief, typically, the concern would be of those silent signs of isolation or not talking, or some obvious questions they may ask that they’re not asking. And I think it’s important also to acknowledge, and this comes from all my clinical experience working with families, that the more you probe a child to say, are you okay? Do you have anything you want to talk about that could feel like emotional pressure to a lot of kids about anything, but especially about some changes that may be occurring. I think it’s more important for parents, especially those that are in the process of a transition, and they’re focused on their kids, and things seem to be going really well, but they’re worried, which many parents might be worried, make yourself available. So what that means is, if you’re taking your child to soccer practice, leave a little early, and maybe on the way, stop and get something to eat, or maybe afterwards, get some ice cream. Just make yourself available. So when that child is ready to talk, is ready to talk about some vulnerable feelings that you’re accessible. I think we all live really busy lives, and I think that’s good advice, even for intact families, is as a parent, make yourself accessible, do things so that kids know that they can talk to you. Role model your own vulnerabilities without disclosing inappropriate information. Role model that it’s okay to be anxious, it’s okay to be a little scared. It’s about how you manage that the goal isn’t not to have those feelings. Those would be normal and typical feelings that just require some coping skills.
Krista Nash 16:26
Yeah, that’s all really, really good. It’s, I mean, that just is such great advice for people. So when you think about children of divorce, how do does your experience best describe how children understand two homes based on this stage of development?
Susan Fletcher 16:41
You know, I think that that’s a really good question, because it’s easy to compartmentalize a family when a transition is occurring, so usually that might occur with language. So listen to the difference in a parent talking to a child about today, you’re going to be at my house, and then you’re going to be at dad’s house Friday through Sunday, and then I’ll pick you up at six o’clock, and then you’ll come back to my house. Okay? Sometimes it’s important to look…. Is there another way to phrase that that might feel a little bit more inclusive, because we’re trying to help children form their opinions and their ability to adapt to having being a member of two households. So I think it’s important to consider different language, like saying, okay, so you’re going to be with your dad at the house on Cherry Street this weekend, and then when I see you on Sunday and we come back to the Main Street house, you know you’ll have everything you need to get ready for school the next morning, so that you talk about it, maybe in terms of the names of the streets, rather than dad’s house, mom’s house. Because many times what kids would say to me in therapy when a transition was occurring with a divorce is they would say, I feel like I’m left out of things. It’s mom’s house, dad’s house. What about my house? My house is where we were all together, and they have to reformulate the way they think about things. So I find that some parents, when they use the name of the street, that isn’t a way to act like nothing bad is happening. It’s just a different way to frame it, instead of my possession time, Dad’s possession time, like, we need to get away from using phrases like when your dad has visitation. That’s like my friends who say, I’m going to go out, my husband’s going to babysit the kids. Okay, parents don’t babysit. They parent. So looking at language like, this is your dad’s parenting time, or this is your time with your father, and you’re going to have a blast. He’s going to take you to soccer practice. I’ll be there too, and I know he’s got some plans for y’all to go out to eat or say, you know your mom is going to pick you up early because you’re all going to go to church together, being able to talk about parenting time versus possession and access and visitation also helps kids transition and and start to deal with the fact that there now are two homes.
Krista Nash 18:52
It’s interesting because we just, I know, you know Ellen Bruno in her Split films, when I just did a podcast with her that was released today as we’re recording this, or this week, I guess it is today. All the days are running together. But she talked about how kids feel like they’re shape shifters too. How do you respond to that? Or does that resonate with you?
Susan Fletcher 19:12
Well, I think the way that I think of it is that kids feel forgotten and left out, not considered sometimes, and that’s because of our language and two households can unfortunately reinforce that negativity or that belief system. And so I always look at things like two households as an opportunity, looking at you get time alone with one parent this weekend, and then you and I are going to have some time alone during the week or this week, and then you’ll be with your dad next week. Those kinds of things, I think, are being able to present things as opportunities and then to take advantage of the opportunity, instead of using it as an advantage, to try to one up the other parent at the expense of the child, which is what you and I want to help families avoid, because that’s where we really get into real difficulties with kids.
Krista Nash 19:56
It’s interesting too, because I’m having a little bit of a hard time. Fighting the fight about, you know, the lingo around custody, right? Because a lot of people, many, many professionals, have fought for a long time. Let’s not call it custody, you know, goes back to the chattel in the law of like, you know, kids are owned by the dad, you know, for this patriarchal ownership system, right? And so we in the industry have worked hard to make it about parenting time, decision making. But it’s interesting, because it’s very hard to stop parents, marketing people, all these different people, like the industry, outside of just what we talk about really does still call it that, you know, like you look at the Google searches, it’s like parents call it custody all the time. So I appreciate you explaining that a little bit, because I even fall into the trap of using custody and some of my labeling, because, frankly, because that’s what people are searching for, right? And so the marketing people are like, no, you’ve got to use custody. So I get that, but I do think it’s a super important nuance, because these languages really do matter in what we call because kids,
Susan Fletcher 21:00
I mean, when a divorce occurs, for a majority of the population, more is the same than is different, and I think we forget that too. It’s important to help children see that. I don’t believe we should make promises to kids we can’t keep. So if a parent says, I promise you, we can stay in the house, I promise you you can stay at the same school, I promise you that I can still afford to have you on competitive cheerleading or, you know, travel lacrosse, things like that. Be really careful about that, because with a divorce, there are some changes, obviously, and some financial responsibilities and resources. So I don’t want to give the impression that it’s okay to promise something that you may not be able to follow through with. But I do want to help families recognize that it’s important to point out things for children, no matter what age they are, that more is the same, that is different. What is the same is, I love you and your mom or dad also love you. What is the same is, we’re still going to go back to school in the beginning of the school year together. What is the same is that, at least for now, through the end of the school year, I know we’re going to be in this house as some things and some decisions are made, versus what kids are going to notice is what is different. You know, there’s an empty chair at the table in the kitchen where one of the parents used to sit, or I’m with dad, and mom is the one who knows how to braid my hair. So they’re going to already pick up on and they’re going to be hyper vigilant for things that are different. So it’s important to reinforce where you can and you feel pretty certain that something is the same compared to different and and role model that for kids, we’re not trying to put wool over their eyes and we’re not trying to mislead them, but I think we do need to show where more is the same than is different, because that’s the goal. When there are two households, the goal is there’s still a family system. They’re operating from two households, and the hope and the expectation is that the parents don’t let their own conflict influence their ability to parent or interfere with that child’s ability to have a healthy relationship with the other parent.
Krista Nash 23:01
I love that you’re so well spoken about all of this. I’m like, sitting here, because if you’re on YouTube, you can see I’m scribbling all these notes. I’m always writing down the best quotes, so I can use those for my intro quote. And when you give me too many, I’m just sitting here, like, getting hand wrapped the whole time. So well said, well said, okay, so what kind of things would you be able to share that kids tell you when, maybe back when you were doing therapy, or when you’ve been court involved in a way that the kids speak to you directly. Because, man, I have, I should do my own podcast with just sound bites of some of the clips in my head of what kids say to me when I interview them. What kind of things have you heard over your career that they wish their parents knew or that the court knew?
Susan Fletcher 23:38
Yeah, and so it’s a continuum, right? Because, first of all, I’ve heard things from I wish my parents knew that I already knew that they were going to divorce, because I heard them talking about it, and so it’s okay. I wish that my parents, you know, understood that their decisions are affecting me, and I’m not happy about it. Kids also say, what about me? I don’t think that they’re considering me; this is very selfish of them.
Krista Nash 24:02
But I just literally had that just the other day, this kid, like, sat there pensively listening and said, that is so selfish of the court. You know, we were talking about fundamental rights to parent right versus what, how much weight your wishes carry, right and right? Like, kind of scorned me and said, That’s so selfish, right? I mean, yeah, like their their rights are prioritized over yours in these…
Susan Fletcher 24:24
Right I know, and you and I couldn’t talk about that extensively, about how we feel about that. The other part of that is, though, is that kids, developmentally, are looking at fairness. Think about holidays, you know, I know, I have three adult children, and when they were kids, they’re all boys, and they used to argue about, wait, that’s not fair. He got five presents and I got three presents. Well, the three presents cost a whole lot more than the five presents, right? But they’re always kind of looking for, you know, fairness, and that’s developmentally appropriate. I think the goal is for all of us as parents to teach kids what to do when some. Something doesn’t feel fair, because that’s a better life skill, right? How do you manage when something doesn’t feel fair? And so when you’re talking about what kids have said to me in therapy, fairness, and their emphasis on fairness and their hyper vigilance about things that don’t appear fair, seems to be a pretty common theme, and the goal, whether you’re a parent or a mental health professional, is to help that child learn how to manage what it feels like when they perceive things are not fair, because we are doing them a disservice if we try to help them figure out how to point out to others something’s not fair. They need to learn how to cope when things don’t feel fair, and look for opportunities. And I’m also going to add Krista I think you’re noticing is I have a very positive attitude.
Krista Nash 25:41
It’s great. It is. It’s different, and it just is a lot of people. It’s just always negative, negative, negative.
Susan Fletcher 25:50I think whether it’s a family, family members going through a transition, it’s the mental health providers or the people in the court system or attorneys, we have a tendency to land on the square of negativity, and sometimes not feel so hopeful or feel a sense of disappointment, because I’ve had a clinical practice as long as I have, and because I do do a lot of work with families where there’s resistance and refusal, I testify in court as a as a testifying expert to educate the trier of fact about the literature related to court involved families, because I do that, one of the things, even as a therapist, that I tend to focus on, is, where are opportunities, where are the solutions? Because when you deal with families in transition, no matter where they are on that continuum of conflict, they’re focusing on a lot of the negativity. What’s going to change because of that, the way somebody treated them, the court system doesn’t seem fair. Or now I don’t have as much money, or now my children need to change schools, or now I have to get a job, or have to get a different job. There is so much that can feel negative and is negative. I am not denying people their reality of change and negativity, but I do believe my role as a mental health professional, no matter what role I’m in and what role I play, that I have to provide an environment where people can remember that what we have control over is our responses to things, and that there are always opportunities and solutions If we give ourselves the mindset and put ourselves in the mindset to look for them, if we’re always going to focus on loss, grief and negativity, then that’s what we’re going to see. You know, when we teach people to drive a car, we say when you’re driving, don’t look to the left of somebody, you know, that’s walking on the street, because you’re automatically going to go that direction. I think it’s the same thing when we’re talking about families that are involved in the family court system or in the process of a divorce and transitioning to two households, we need to provide an environment where they can look at at opportunities, at solutions, because they’re there, and that’s really what builds resiliency in adults as well as resiliency in kids. And isn’t thathat this is all about? We don’t want children to carry the baggage of their childhood into their own relationships of adulthood, so it’s important for us to help them deal with some of those things. They may need a better toolbox of skills because of a transition in their family, but I don’t really know a downside to that. The upside is they have more tools, and they may be better prepared as adults to deal with different personalities and adapt to change.
Krista Nash 28:25
I love that. I mean, I I am a broken record in talking to kids about just talking to them directly, and they’re very, usually very reasonable people about this, that they know this is hurting them, because, again, by the time I come in, it’s usually pretty conflict laden as the best interest attorney, but they’re aware of how it’s affecting them, and they know it’s gonna hurt them. So even in a parent child contact problem with an older child, for example, I just like, have seared in my memory kids who are 16,17, almost 18, and they’ll say, I’m completely fine, and you know, then they’re weeping, right? And you’re like, you know, and I know that you’re not fine, right? This, there’s, there’s a variety of ways that we can approach this, and I know you don’t want to come out of the corner if you think you have to go to 50/50 and have that pressure. And there’s a whole bunch of dynamics around that, but kids know it’s important that they do this and manage it in a healthy way. I also think sometimes the kids are the more mature ones, which was ironic. I mean, what’s your experience of that? Like the kids are like, Yeah, can we not just negotiate this, in a way, is easier than this. Why is it so hard? Actually, just preview the next part of our conversation like it might be because of the lawyers for some of those factors right that make things more toxic. Have you found that too, that sometimes kids can be the most mature and understanding of the real situations?
Susan Fletcher 29:38
Yeah, you and I attend national conferences, where we have the opportunity to be with our colleagues from other areas, outside of our state, and sometimes we get the chance to socialize with colleagues in our community. We don’t have time until we go to a conference in New Orleans or something. But what that’s one of the things that I think that’s pretty common, that we all talk about, is that, you know, we’re pleased to see that kids are doing well. Through this process, despite high conflict, possibly in the co-parenting relationship, especially when litigation is involved, we just want kids to be able to preserve their abilities and their resourcefulness and management of their vulnerabilities. So despite sometimes parents behaving badly in a divorce process when they are involved in the legal system. We do see a lot of kids are doing well. A lot of what I do now is appointed by courts to do child custody evaluations. And I don’t get the easy ones. There are no easy ones, but I get the ones that require a higher level of expertise and amount of training and knowledge that I have. And then I also do psychological evaluations after being appointed by the courts, everything I do is appointed by the court now. So you can imagine, it’s a certain sample of the population, and I have an evaluation that I completed in the last few years that when I did the interview with the adolescent, the child who was in high school, one of the first things that very wonderful teenager said to me is, I just wish my parents would get over themselves. We just wish they’d get over themselves. And he was a lot more adult than what I learned about the parents and how the parents presented, because I’m going to say, bless their hearts,
Krista Nash 31:12
Right, right? Like, other than overall, you North Westerners who don’t know about that, yeah,
Susan Fletcher 31:18
But the parents were just stuck in their own feelings of stress and trauma and concerns and their conflict, and they were stuck in the details about, you know, things that really in the long run, may not have required that much attention and emotion, but they were there, and that was that was part of the problem, and having their son say to me, I just wish my parents would get over themselves. Actually put it in the report, and then I talked about it in the context of all the other information that I had. And, you know, sometimes I don’t know, as an evaluator, after a case is over, what actually happens, but sometimes you and I do know, don’t we, because sometimes we get these I’ve gotten cards during the holidays. I’ve got cards during Thanksgiving. I’ve been invited to weddings where people I had one recently where somebody sent me a really sweet note with a picture of both families together. Both parents had remarried, and they wanted me to see that. It took them 10 years, but they were able to celebrate a holiday together. And they didn’t like me very much when I was the evaluator, but over time, they learned to understand and reread the report that some of what I said was useful and they needed to apply it. And you know, that’s why we do this work. We do see that families are better for the interventions, they’re better for some of the restrictions. They’re better for some of the Court’s decisions. And we don’t always hear about those. We have the Google review comments that are negative.
Krista Nash 32:43
By the way, I’ll just put a little pin here that you know you can expect that good evaluators have some bad Google reviews. It comes with it. It’s like every single war zone you’re in, somebody’s very, very irate. It might not be the parent, it could be a grandma, it could be a boyfriend, it could be so just take those with a grain of salt. Some of them are true. Some of them are absolutely not true.
Susan Fletcher 33:03
I’m going to add this is one of the first few that I got, it’s been many years ago now. I was like, Oh my gosh, you know. And then everybody was talking about, how do you get rid of those? And I’m like, Okay, I think it’s just part of the territory. And then I spoke at a conference where there were a lot of judges, and one of the judges during a break came up to me and said, Dr Fletcher, I’m glad to meet you because I’ve read your Google reviews, and I’m like, Oh, great. And he said, I want you to know that it gives you credibility with the court, because you’re willing to take the harder cases, and those things you recognize are not about you. And so when somebody gets those kinds of Google reviews, the judges all talk and say, this is someone that might be willing to take a difficult case. I’m going to tell you my favorite Google review is that red headed psychologists are soulless.
Krista Nash 33:43
Oh, jeez, it reminds me of my friend. There’s a taco shop, kind of place, taco restaurant near us, and they, all the wait staff, wears a t-shirt with the Yelp review, or whatever it is that says this place sucks. But they have, they just carry that freak flag on their shirt, you know, and it’s like, one star, no stars, or something like that, you know? And, yeah, I mean, I’ve had, again, like, I’ve started using, you know, I look at marketing, I look at Google reviews, and I’ve had people, Oh, you got to correct that. I’m like, I’m not getting this with these people, you know, you need to respond. I’m not responding. It’s okay, you know.
Susan Fletcher 34:18
So I’m gonna take people newer to the profession, whether they’re attorneys or they’re mental health people, that’s something that’s hard for them to overcome, and they may believe, and maybe rightly so, that that’ll interfere with people that are not court involved actually seeing them because they don’t understand the context. So unfortunately, I think what that does is it makes our numbers shrink, more of the amount of professionals willing to work with a court involved population.
Krista Nash 34:39
It’s a real problem right now. It’s just that it is difficult. So well, there’s so many different ways we could go before we pivot here. But I guess I’m gonna end this section by just asking you, what are some signs that parents might need to be aware of, that their child is struggling emotionally, even if they’re saying they’re fine, right?
Susan Fletcher 34:56
I think it’s a great question, because there are signs and what is een over time is that kids tend to start isolating, and it’s important to compare your child’s behavior with their previous behavior. So previously, your child came home from school and spent an hour, an hour and a half, playing video games, but then came out of his or her room and got a snack and was, you know, energetic, interacting with you and engaging with you. Okay, then that doesn’t necessarily mean that that’s a negative sign, but it’s a change in that it’s where they are in their room, maybe staring at the wall, or they’re in there longer when they come out, they get something to eat, but they’re not engaging with you. So the sense of isolation or the observation of their behavior as being more about isolation and avoidance and to really, really be on the lookout for that, and don’t again. Don’t probe them and say, what’s going on? How come in your room? So long. Okay, that doesn’t really help anything. But by saying, Hey, listen, I’m gonna sit down and watch the show on Netflix, you told me about, if you want to come out, watch it with me, I’d love to have you. Or saying, you know, I’m gonna make myself a snack. Would you like some? Do something that creates an environment where it’s inviting to engage without poking around at their feelings and emotions, because they may not be accessible to them, or they may not make them accessible to you at that moment. So isolation is another one. It is isolating, and I’m not isolating, but withdrawing from friends, so things that they might have wanted to do previously, and these are also signs of depression. But I think it’s important that we recognize that there might be some of that short term that maybe isn’t something to worry about, but it’s the persistence of those behaviors. So a friend that they may have, you know, gone outside, down the street and shot that from the basketball courts and kind of stopped doing that. Haven’t done it maybe for three weeks in a row somebody who looks at their grades, I think all parents should be looking in the parent portal of their children’s school to see whether they’re turning in assignments or there seems to be a trend that’s going down a bit with their academics. And again, don’t probe. Offer opportunity. Say, I’m going to run to the library or this coffee shop or work on something for work. You want to go there with me, and you can do some of your homework, make some things inviting, try to engage without it feeling punitive to your child. The only other thing is, is that really pay attention to whether your children are talking in a language that’s negative and kind of fatalistic, versus able to look at the positive and opportunities or asking the kind of questions that might be expected. For example, I worked with a family for a long time that the mom, when the divorce occurred, she and the children moved in with her parents, and she had to share a room with the daughter, and then the son slept on the couch, and it was meant to be short term, but because of a series of situations, they were there probably about two years, and that’s not ideal. And so one of the things that I think was a subtle turn is her son started to make comments like, it’s never gonna get better. This is just, you know, this is supposed to be short term. You lied to me. They were struggling with being able to look at, okay, we gotta figure out how to deal with this. And kids don’t understand financial resources and limitations, or some of those things, and some of that’s developmentally appropriate, even in intact families. But looking for those things, looking for the fatalistic thinking, the things that they’re saying and an inability to have hope, look for those things and also talk to your friends who have children that are same age as yours, that your kids hang out with, or they’re in the same classes. And you might want to say, you know, I know that you care about us and you respect us and my kids. And if there’s anything I need to know that you find out, just want you to know I’m open to hearing it, giving your friends permission to tell you things they may notice, because they may see some things before you do.
Krista Nash 38:40
That’s really good advice. You can tell you’re like, I am. I have four adult children. You have three. You can tell that we are parents just with our plain talking solutions based approach at some of this. I mean, I feel like a lot of what I do in my best interest work draws on that more than be a lawyer, right? It’s like, let’s talk about what these kids need. Let’s talk about, you know social media pressures, or you know what they can do for curfew, or how they’re there’s a lot of dynamics that come into play in divorce families that you know common sense approach, having been experienced as a parent, really brings a lot of help, help to and I think your friends who you can trust, have a good relationship with, are really great resources to say, Hey, let me know. You know, you know, I’m open if you’re seeing anything that’s really good advice from a mother and psychologist, right?
Susan Fletcher 39:26
I appreciate that. Can I just add you and I both know that we are the provider of hope for the clients that we serve and the families that we serve, and so we have to role model that. We have to role model some positivity and hope when they’re struggling to find that, especially as it relates to the well being of their children. And let’s also acknowledge some parents can be hyper vigilant, and I see things that aren’t there with their kids, because I and I’ll just offer the hypotheses that might make them feel better because they’re miserable, if their kids are miserable or they’re mad at their soon to be ex spouse, you know, might feel validating if the. Children are mad, and those are areas that, you know, where we see that in litigation, and we try to do everything we can to redirect that, because that doesn’t benefit children. So I think it’s important just to, you know, have your social group give them permission to alert you to some things about yourself, as well as your kids.
Krista Nash 40:17
I love that. It’s like getting into the echo chamber a little bit, you know, inviting feedback. So that’s a great pivot, actually. So let’s talk now about the professionals. Okay, and talking to the professionals about which hopefully I always say that this part of the podcast episodes should still be interesting to parents, though, because this will help you evaluate the kind of professionals you should hire, and if you’re needing an attorney or a mental health professional, the kind of things you want to think about in terms of how those people can be doing services, or maybe just services, or be doing things better or worse than they are. So let’s talk about that. So what common missteps? I mean, you talked about role modeling, right? And being the role model for I’ve got some attorneys who call people like you and like me, first responders, or especially attorneys representing parents as first responders. What do you see with these kinds of missteps? Are you seeing damn law professionals? Maybe that mental health professionals? Maybe it’s lawyers that don’t serve children very well, as we talk about divorce. Maybe particularly when divorce is first picking up or a conflict occurs. Maybe the worst went fine, but then a conflict comes, and now we’re off to the races in a post decree case. What are the missteps that you’re seeing? Maybe problems of role modeling or problems of perception that you’ve noticed. So I think for mental health professionals who provide direct services to kids, one of the missteps is asking too many questions. I mean, asking too many questions.
Susan Fletcher 41:42
Just feels like you know of the kids you mean, or you mean of kids, of the kids. So it’s a therapist who’s providing direct services to children whose parents are going through a divorce. There is a tendency to want to ask a lot of questions, because you feel like you really kind of want to know some things, but it can feel very overwhelming to a child, and also, if they have been in therapy before, but can feel really invasive. So I think that’s a mistake by mental health professionals. I think it’s more important to create an environment where kids feel comfortable talking about things and ask things in general, like, tell me about you. Tell me a little bit about what your days look like right now. How are they the same? How are they different? Versus, do you ever see your parents fight? So that would be for the mental health professionals providing therapy services to kids, I think for attorneys. Because typically, if it’s an attorney representing a parent versus a best interest attorney, if it’s an attorney representing a parent, I think that I’m going to tell you, based on my many years of experience, I see where sometimes attorneys don’t consider the kids as much as they should. They don’t ask questions about kids’ vulnerabilities. I did a child custody evaluation a number of years ago, and the attorney for one of the parties didn’t even know one of their children had been diagnosed with autism, and that was pretty hard to miss, but it was an indicator to me that maybe there weren’t a lot of discussions about vulnerabilities of the children. So I think for attorneys who represent the parties, it’s important to possibly, early on, ask questions, and I don’t know that the question is, what are your children’s vulnerabilities? But saying, I want to get to know your child through you, what are some concerns other people have expressed to you about your children, help me get to know them through you, and then just kind of listen and look for follow up questions to ask. And I think, unfortunately, there are some attorneys that don’t do that for a variety of reasons. I don’t think it’s because they’re bad people. I think they have a job to do, and they get on, you know, certain line of questioning. And then I think for best interest attorneys who work with kids, I think it’s important to recognize that. But best in my experience, and I’m curious if you tell me if this is accurate or representative, by the time a best interest attorney is involved, they’re kind of down the line a little bit, because there’s a reason that that may be necessary. They may have already met a therapist. They may have already changed schools. They could have met a new partner with one of their parents. So there’s a lot of things that may have occurred. So you’re not going to be the first person that’s asking questions. So I think it’s important I’ll tell you, as a custody evaluator, the first question I ask children when I meet them, knowing I’m in that same position, I’m kind of far down the line when they order parties to have a custody evaluation, and I’m appointed. I’m not the first line there. I’m not really the first responder. I’m Okay. Tribes avoid it, but now we need a custody evaluation, so the first I always meet kids in their home. I do everything I can to not have them come to my office.
Krista Nash 44:36
My office is here, by the way. I’m, like, adamant about that, that is what we need to do. So, and a lot of people don’t do it. I think it’s malpractice, personally, so Well, I think you can, I mean, maybe that’s obviously, I mean, I don’t mean it’s actual malpractice. But I I don’t stand it, because I don’t know if you could possibly, I have got 100 examples of why, of examples where it was so important, of things I saw the to present it to the comfort level, and the insights, all the things, even somebody at the level of you and of like Dr Saini, it’s like, I go to the home, I sit at the table, I go to their rooms, I see what’s going on. It’s just so,
Susan Fletcher 45:11
Yeah, I think that there’s reasons that are understandable, that mental health professionals may not do, that they’re afraid for safety. There could be safety issue if you’re a male evaluator or attorney being alone in a bedroom with a daughter of one of the clients or that you’re so I understand that. We gotta figure out how to work around that so it can still occur. But the first question I’ll ask when I have the opportunity to individually interview a child, no matter what age they are, is, I’ll say, you know, I’ve met your mom, met your dad. They’ve had the opportunity to give me a whole lot of information, and it was helpful, and they each talked about so many positive things about you, and I’ve really been looking forward to the opportunity to meet you, and now I have the opportunity to know what no one else can give me, but tell me, what is it like to be you and your family right now, I’ve had kids start to bawl, kids just speak with hardly a breath for 10 minutes. That has served me well as an opening question, because they’re concerned about what I’m going to ask, right? And many kids have loyalty conflicts, or perceived loyalty conflicts, and so just asking them, tell me what it’s like to be you right now. You’re the only one that can tell me that, and I’m really interested, and I’m so excited to get the opportunity, finally, to meet you. I just spend time with all the adults, and I get a chance to meet with you.
Krista Nash 46:25
Another thought I have of that too is, I mean, I just went and did an interview with a young man, you know, who’s like, I don’t know. I guess he’s 16, maybe. And so I was able to go tour the house, right? Kind of not in a way where I would be put in a vulnerable position, where, so I’m going to get accused of something, right? But I can still see the home. Walk around with the home. You know, we’re not in behind closed doors. We’re not interviewing him in his room. But then we walked out. You know, I’m always just looking for opportunities. They happen to have a nice area that was out away from the home where we just went and sat outside. You know, it was cold out, but we’re like, okay, let’s grab blankets and go sit outside, because I wanted to be out of the home with all these other people, but that allowed me to see it’s so important, I mean, to go see the different places that they’re living. One of my examples is that a kid who was being really labeled obstinate by people in the family when I interviewed her and she I actually brought my little dog. And if parents let me, I bring, I don’t know where my dogs are now, I can show you, but I will bring my little Cavalier dog. And, you know, kids love that, and kind of just takes the edge off of things, and dogs kind of climbing on them and climbing on me. And we’re sitting on the floor of the room, and this girl has a next to her bedside table. There are books that are about business success and like habits, right? And books that I have on my own shelf and should follow more, right? And I, I ended up really pausing my tracks. I mean, tell me about that. And, and she was able to talk about how she wants to change the trajectory of her life, right? And like, she’s working on it. So it just gives insight. You know, I come from a journalism background, and part of the principles in journalism are to, like, show me. Don’t tell me. Like, don’t just say she’s not obstinate. Show me, right, that, right? I think that. And you’re really good at that too. You give really good examples, like the dad who doesn’t know how to braid the hair, or the daughter who isn’t just obstinate. It’s not okay to just label that, because she isn’t, she’s actually thoughtful, and she’s showing that through real examples. So anyway, that’s why I think we got to do them in person too. And I love that question. I’m going to start stealing that question, what is it like to be you?
Susan Fletcher 48:21
So let me just add one more thing. I think it’s a stereotypical example that I said, you know a man in a bedroom alone with a young girl. It’s with anybody. And I think that’s where some hesitancy is with mental health professionals, is that, you know, they’re, they’re concerned about somebody making an accusation or a board complaint, or they’re concerned about they rightly so wonder what they don’t know. I’ve been in a teenager’s bedroom and seen paraphernalia, and boy was I glad that I had that opportunity, and I asked a lot of questions, and I think that the teenager was somewhat surprised that I even kind of knew what that was, because it isn’t what you typically see, and so I always gain insight by being in the environment where children are. I always know they’ve cleaned up their home before I’ve gotten there, and I appreciate it, but I also I want to know what their space looks like. And just walking around the block with a child where you’re not looking at each other and you say, tell me a little bit about what you think the next year is gonna look like asking questions like that, and you know what leads you to believe that? Or what else have you considered? It’s so valuable because you don’t get that when you bring them into your office and they’re freaking out and see all your diplomas, we’re missing out if we don’t go to them, and we require them to come to us and operate in our environments.
Krista Nash 49:39
So okay, I know this ends up becoming a big question, but since you talked about the grievance complaint, let’s just pivot to that for a minute. This is a huge problem, right? We have massive amounts of therapists who are paralyzed because they’re worried about being grieved with through their licensing boards, and sometimes rightly so, because we just talked earlier. Rip out the Google reviews and people do grieve and tell me a little bit about that, because I know you’ve been really involved in Texas, right in the political, legislative side of trying to change some of that, in a way, not changing it, but just make it, make more protections. That’s such an important part of the work you’ve done.
Susan Fletcher 50:15
I think it’s an important part. And I think there are lessons for all of us, no matter what state you’re in. And you know, just to review, every state has a board that regulates the profession and the license and sets the policies and has the rules, and they’re the ones that if somebody has a complaint that they call and complain. So I was honored to be appointed by Governor Abbott in Texas to serve as a board member on the State Board for Psychology. And then another entity was developed right before COVID That was an executive committee made up of members, licensed members of each board in our state. And then, as well as public members, which there’s a great opportunity with public members, the expertise that comes from people that are members of the public on the boards just has so much value. And so during that time, clearly, I got to see what everything looks like behind the wall, and I became more aware of the numbers, and I became more aware of the amount of the way that different complaints were coming in, especially as it related to mental health professionals working with court involved families. And so really, what changed in our state, and I appreciate the credit I get for it, but I’m going to tell you, it takes a village for change to occur. And so it was the whole board, as well as people who made public comments at our board meetings, that really looked at it, re re-examined the way things were done. And now in the state of Texas, if somebody is going to make a complaint against a licensed professional, there’s more responsibility on the person making the complaint to have the documentation of what they’re saying. And it used to be the other way around, that somebody would get a board complaint. It’s still this way in many states, somebody would get a board complaint, the Board staff would notify them, and then they’d have to start defending themselves, and then for it to be dismissed eight or nine months later, after that, mental health professional retained an attorney to assist them in their response to the board. So that doesn’t create a friendly environment for people but to get involved in this kind of work, and I’ve heard all those different stories, and that may happen to somebody one time and they’re out. So we are trying to have a better succession plan in every single state for people willing to do this work, who are willing to have the experience and training and learn literature in order to be qualified to do this work, so we can minimize harm to families. We can actually be change agents in the different roles we play. So it’s important to have a higher level of expertise working with court involved families. So that is a fear people have. So no matter what state anybody’s in who’s a mental health professional, and no matter who is going to consider making a complaint, whether it’s an attorney, it’s another mental health professional, or it’s somebody who receives services from a mental health provider, here’s what I’ll tell you, my personal belief is, and I think it’s a professional stance to take that you always contact that provider first to let them know your grievance, keeping it out of the board arena. Let them know your grievance so that they have the opportunity to correct it, and they have the opportunity to provide information. Isn’t that what we’re really trying to help parents involved in the litigation process of divorce is to try to manage what they can on their own before they go to the big guns and then a court who is a stranger, the judge is a stranger, making decisions for the family. So we’re talking about this process related to mental health professionals and grievances we are in our state board and our policies and our rules, and says you must contact the other licensed professional first, that that’s our obligation. But my experience is people don’t always do that. I had an incident where I was doing a custody evaluation, and the litigant, when I interviewed the father, when he was talking a little bit about his son’s therapy, he said, Yeah, it’s a little daunting, because I’m sitting on the couch in the waiting room while he’s in the therapy room at the therapist, and I can hear everything they’re saying, and I’m concerned, and I don’t know what to do with that information. And so as soon as that case was done, I contacted with the I asked the attorneys if I could have their blessing, and just want to make sure they knew I was going to contact them, because I did put it in my report, and there wasn’t much time left before that report was going to be submitted. So I contacted that professional and said, I know, I’ve interviewed you as part of the custody evaluation. You provided information about this child, but I have some other information. I hope you’re willing to accept I have knowledge. And it is in my report that the father, at least reported he could hear everything going on in your office. And the professional said, I know, I talked to the owner of the office, and I’m like, here’s what I’m going to tell you. This is something where there could be a board complaint, and I’m contacting you because I am a professional in your community and wants to see you do well and and I think you have the opportunity to go on Amazon and buy a white noise machine and stick that in the corner of your office, or maybe in the waiting room. Don’t wait for someone else to solve a problem that you’re responsible for, and that person took care of it and even contacted me and thanked me, and then the father apparently reported down the line to one of the attorneys, for whatever reason, I can’t hear what goes on in my son’s therapy anymore. And they said, You can thank Dr. Fletcher for that, but that’s how we should do it. And there are many people who immediately go to the board, and there are times that it’s out of the scope of the board’s jurisdiction to manage whatever it is, and so it gets dismissed. So I think for mental health professionals, if we knew that our colleagues or people that we work with in the arena of core involved families were going to let us know something that we have the opportunity to correct it, I think that that goes a long way to having a sense of community where we don’t feel like we’re eating our own or we’re out to get each other, because that’s what happens when we start mimicking the families we provide services to. And I think we got to get out of that. And it starts with each of us. Each of us have to look for opportunities to straighten somebody’s crown, all those things. Look for those opportunities and do it.
Krista Nash 55:53
Yeah. I mean, then, of course, that holds true for attorneys and any other professionals as well. I’m curious. And again, these can all be we’ll have to have you out again, and there’s so many things to talk through, but I’m curious about whether it’s actually true. I mean, like, why do so many therapists just say I will not testify, I will not give observations? I mean, there’s, like, this general sense of fear, and then they’ll, you know, they’ll put it in their contracts that they won’t do it. I understand that people are afraid that they are going to hurt the therapeutic process. And I understand for some it is, you know, by being involved in the case, I also understand that for some it’s privilege issues, like depending on your state’s laws and the certain who’s holding the privilege for that therapy. I understand all that. What I don’t understand is that when you have somebody where, let’s say, a kid, is really reporting something important and it would help the child to have a therapist testify, right? So, for example, as a best interest attorney, I often really need the therapist to testify, because they can bring things into court that I can’t under evidentiary rules. What is the reality of the situation? If you can explain, like, why is it so hard to get them to testify?
Susan Fletcher 57:01
Yeah, I’ve got some really concise opinions about this, and in our community, there are a number of us that put on conferences twice a year in order to provide education and training to the general practitioner out there who doesn’t know how to respond to a subpoena, doesn’t want to be a work with court involved families as a specialty, but really is fearful of the court process. All you have to do is go on Instagram or a Facebook group and look at some of the rants some professionals post about that. Attorneys are out to get you. They want to make it your fault. You know, don’t do it. Charge $1,000 an hour. If somebody wants you to be involved in court, have them sign this paper. It makes me nauseous. It really upsets me, because that is really a professional not recognizing that they have an obligation in order to do their job. And if a family they’ve worked with becomes court involved, they don’t know what they don’t know. And to your point, all the court needs is to enter in the record information from the source, and many times that’s the therapist. I did a custody evaluation again a number of years ago, because I’m not going to say anything about current cases, but a number of years ago, and I had a therapist that would not speak to me. She sent me basically a cease and desist letter that she wrote saying, you know, do not contact me again, or I’ll say it’s harassment. I contacted her twice, and she was adamant. She sent me her paperwork that it was $1,500 an hour for the parties to pay her in order to be interviewed by me. And it was really hostile. And what was really upsetting is she only actually saw the couple in marital therapy three times. And she also said in her written statements to me that she did nott see them long enough to have anything that was worthy of information. It was four years ago. Okay, what she doesn’t know is the couple never returned. She knew that never returned. She didn’t know they left that session that was at four o’clock on a Thursday afternoon, and by nine o’clock, the police were at their home because there was an incidence of domestic violence in response to something that happened in that session. So me having an idea of what her observations were and what was what occurred in that session, and any behaviors that she may have noticed without knowing what happened after they left, was so valuable, not only to me, but to the court. And so I actually attached all her communication that she sent to me as an attachment. I footnoted it in my report as an attachment, and the court ordered her to come to court and testify, which is never pleasant for anyone, and she couldn’t avoid that. She came with an attorney, and it could have been prevented. So I think the main reason is not understanding the court process. The other thing is, we have a culture where people think they don’t have to obey authority and the rules don’t apply to them. I think for some therapists that have confided in me and asked for support or consultation when they’re in some of those situations I’ll provide. . I get is a sense there’s a bit of an imposter syndrome. They start to doubt themselves and what they did, and they feel like it’s going to be scrutinized, and that’s called cross examination. And unfortunately, you and I know that does happen sometimes. So there’s a variety of things that are about the therapist and their insecurities or lack of knowledge, but I think as a community, we could do a better job of helping people know more accurate information, because the Facebook groups and things like that, people say, I got a subpoena. What do I do? I read what people put in response. And I used to go ahead and write something, but it was so hostile. I don’t do it anymore, but I certainly will reach out to them and the insurance companies won’t allow them to testify
Krista Nash 1:00:38
So I can’t answer to that, because there’s different insurance companies, but you know, their premiums may go up and they may provide an attorney on the malpractice insurance that I’ve used for many years provides funds for an attorney, and sometimes you can pick your attorney. Sometimes they provide one for you. But that’s just scary. That’s just, you know, it’s nightmarish for people to think that I have to have an attorney, and most often, that’s, that’s the right thing to do, and that helps you know how to best respond. The attorney will respond for you. It’s just really frustrating from the best interest attorney stand no because, I mean, until we change, which is a whole nother topic about how we actually get children’s voices to be heard, right? In case, it’s like, I was just reading a transcript earlier today. It’s like, they’re trying to get this stuff in. There was an incident that was really horrific that went on with these kids. And I’m what, look, I just got appointed, and I’m looking at it, and the transcripts got all this stuff in it. That is, you know, I, I’m watching the objections. I wasn’t at this hearing. It’s like, object sustain, here’s a, here’s a, here’s a, you know, and it’s just, we have this civil litigation mindset, and we can’t get this stuff in, and we can get it in, usually through the therapist. So the therapist, by staying out of it, I don’t think they understand how much they’re harming or not helping.
Susan Fletcher 1:01:57
They can’t think that they’re blinded sometimes to understand it because of fear, and I can understand that too, yeah, but no matter what your profession, but especially in the mental health profession, when you don’t know something or something feels scary to you, what you do is you consult with someone that has a higher level of expertise, experience and knowledge in that area. And that’s what I hope people take away from our conversation is that don’t just freeze and have a trauma response, right? Or make decisions that could get you a board complaint or get you, like this therapist, a court that basically sent a deputy out to their office and gave them a court order to appear. That’s pretty frightening. I don’t know. You know that’s the best way to do it, but that was their only option that they gave it is you. And I know when courts are making decisions about the best interest of families, they need the data. They need the information, and not making yourself accessible as a mental health provider with information, even if you think it isn’t very much, or you have led yourself to believe that it’s not important, you don’t know. And so I want courts, especially in Texas, to have juries for some of our family law trials. And I know we’re weird in Texas, but I enjoy juries, and so I’m involved in a lot of trials that have juries for family law. But whether it’s juries or it’s the judge making decisions, you and I know we want them to have the information so they can make decisions in the best interests of families. And I think mental health providers who aren’t willing to be a part of that process or fool themselves to believe that they don’t have anything to offer, they harm families. I’ll go that far. It’s harmful that far too.
Krista Nash 1:03:33
It’s like for people who are just trying to get to the truth, the judges want to get to the truth. They just have these really hard rules, and it’s really hard, and there’s certain exceptions that allow us to get certain things within the rules, and one of them is therapeutic. The work that the therapists are doing, the judges are far, far, far more likely to let all of that in. So for example, if you have abuse and the therapist has observed, you don’t necessarily have to get in the middle of the parental conflict to just say you don’t have to make a decision like I’m defining, or I’m diagnosing, or I want that. Obviously you can’t say you want the parenting time to be a particular way, but you can say I have observed trauma things that are consistent with my training in trauma. I can’t tell you exactly what they’re from, but unless the kids told you what they said, in which case you should tell the court that, because you’ve got all these horrific things that happen to kids, and how do we do this? It’s just so so difficult. So I really appreciate you having been able to go on alumni. I do wonder, do you still do these conferences to educate the general practitioners?
Susan Fletcher 1:04:31
Absolutely. So we do them in our community. And on my website, Fletcher phd.com, there is a tab for forensic resources, and it’s North Texas. We’re in the DFW area, and it stands for North Texas Families in Transition, and it’s a group of about 12 colleagues that work very hard to provide a service to the community, whether it’s attorneys, judges or mental health professionals, to understand working with court involved families. In fact, earlier this year, wewerein Cancun. We did a conference in Cancun, and we had John Gould as one of our speakers, and Chris Mulkey. And John Gould and Chris Mulkey are two psychologists that have a book coming out at the end of this year about parenting plan evaluations. That I’ve seen, I’ve been honored to receive a preview of it, so I’ve already read it before it’s come out. And, and I’m going to tell you, that was wonderful. We had a number of practitioners who weren’t from Texas that attended that. So anybody can be anybody. Yeah, it can be anybody. We have people from California. So, you know, we’re not looking to have a conference with 200 people, because we want access to the experts that we bring in. But we do a lot locally and the reason I think that’s important is not just for people to attend a North Texas fit conference, but in any community. I believe that professionals can get together and form a group of working people who work with court involved families, and just develop what their intentions are. And we meet every one, Friday a month in person. We don’t do it virtually. We try to always do it in person where we meet and we share resources. We don’t do case consultations, because many of us might be conflicted out of a case, and we don’t ever want to cross that line. But we talk about, there’s a new therapist that I met at a luncheon, and I want to give you all her name, and here’s why, I think she’s somebody that you know we need to get to know or we need to foster, help her with her skills. She’s reached out asking some questions, we are really about building a positive community, an educated community, in order to assist the families in our community, so anybody in any state, any community, group of people, can come together and develop their own version of North Texas fit. So there’s information about it and who we are.
Krista Nash 1:06:47
And also, you know, I’m going to suck you in, because you’re a Colorado licensed psychologist now, so you really should be helping us in Colorado to do this. And so, I mean, that’s just a huge problem. I mean, it’s a huge problem.
Susan Fletcher 1:06:59
But I think that’s where it starts. It starts in our communities. It starts with us. And in Colorado, there are some really good practitioners there who are involved in AFCC. I’ll tell you. We, as you know, recently in New Orleans, I participated with some colleagues in putting on a mock trial all day as a pre conference friends Institute. The people that did that were the North Texas Fit Group. So that is another extension, another way that we do things. We also share literature. A new article comes out, I outline it and I send it to my colleagues in North Texas Fit. So we call it a working group. We’re not a consultation group, but we’re there to support each other, provide resources and try to grow our community, because I think every community needs that. But it starts with those of us with experience and training who are doing the work.
Krista Nash 1:07:47
Okay, well, I’ve kept you way too long. I’m gonna literally have to have you on again, because I hope you’ll come back. But you can wrap up with whatever you would like to say to give hope or positivity to the parents and to the professionals out there, or whatever you would like to conclude.
Susan Fletcher 1:08:02
Well, I’m going to tell you I think, whether it’s divorce, a change of jobs, kids going off to college, life is all about transitions, and I feel fortunate to be in a profession where I get to witness people’s transitions and where resiliency comes from. I get to read the literature. There’s excellent literature coming out, and any clinician working with court involved families needs to know the literature. Need to read it. You don’t have to spend a day a week reading it. There isn’t that much literature, but ou know, don’t make decisions, and don’t have your skills be based on your own personal experience. Have it be based on literature. Because literature, many times, shows something you don’t expect, and that only benefits families. So for the practitioners that are watching this, I think it’s important to recognize that we all have the opportunity to help families, and we shouldn’t put limits on whether or not we’ll be involved with the court system, because it’s going to happen. Why not be prepared? And I just encourage any clinician who is looking to work with court involved families but feels a bit of fear that could be healthy fear. Reach out to someone in your community that you know does the work, and just talk with them about what it means, what it looks like. You know, I fell into this, and it was because I testified as a therapist that saw a small child who witnessed an active abuse. And I remember that first time I was so scared. I’m always having some sense of anxiety before I go on the stand, but it’s not debilitating. It’s because it’s important work. And then I would say to the families that are going through transitions, recognize opportunities on the other side of every transition, but that’s really up to you to decide to be available for it. It’s always there, but we miss it. And so there are many men and women that I’ve met that have had a transition in their marriage, that through a divorce, that have said they were very proud of themselves later because they have the opportunity to be in a healthier relationship or be healthier themselves and their kids benefited from the transition. We don’t always know that when we make the hard decisions, but that’s what life is, is we do the best we can. And with the most educated way that we can make a decision, but we have to look for support. What builds resiliency is support. What builds resiliency is being able to be hopeful, look for opportunities, and more importantly, to recognize much of that is in your control, if you choose. And that’s why we see families do well. That’s why I enjoy my colleagues in the DFW area because they have a very similar outlook for things, and I know the work I do is important. I can’t work harder than the families I serve, because then I’m doing them a disservice. So it’s an important thing for all of us to have balance, whether you’re a mental health professional, you’re a family member going through a divorce, or you’re an attorney, because this is tough work, but it’s worthy work, and so I appreciate the opportunity to be on.
Krista Nash 1:10:43
Thank you. I’ve really enjoyed talking with you. You are a wealth of information. Thanks for all of your commitment to children and to families, and I really, again, appreciate your positivity. I think that’s a breath of fresh air. So you’ll join us again, and thank you so much for being with us today.
Susan Fletcher
Thanks for having me. I enjoyed it.
Krista Nash
Great. We’ll talk to you soon.
Intro/Outro 1:11:01
Krista is licensed in Colorado and Wyoming. So if you are in those states and seek legal services, please feel free to reach out via ChildrenFirstFamilylaw.com that is our website where everyone can find additional resources to help navigate family law as always, be sure to like, subscribe and share the podcast with others you think would benefit from this content.